Of chlorine, chloramine, carbon and zeolite.

Oh, and that tiny abstract that you linked to does not change my mind...please post a full text article that says specifically what kind of bacteria it is that are responsible for the regeneration of activated carbon. In my light reading it seems they are talking about denitrifying, not nitrifying, bacteria. Deep sand beds and live rock hold denitrifying bacteria...not so sure about filter media. Inside of your filter does not seem to be an anaerobic zone...
 
I have no method to measure chlorine or chloramine, ammonia always remains zero. I mentioned, I run the zeolite 24/7 on the top of the AC filter media stack.

I take it, you don't believe that carbon strips the chlorine atom of the chloramine? Am I correct? You want me to post a site to a credible source?

i have no stance about believing your theory or statements. A credible source wont really sway me either unless it is a standard aquarium person who posted up some before/after results of the testing. I just like seeing real world results from people who have nothing to gain or lose from research.
 
I have an issue with posted information garnered from the net. The source is often obfuscated as is the actual testing procedures. This makes it hard to compare against a known test. I would be more at ease if the source came from physical books and papers that have been accepted for publishing in a scientific journal.

I am not saying your sources are incorrect, just that there is no real way to find rebuttal or support for it. Postings on the net are usually a Reader's Digest version lacking in many details. They offer up meat and potatoes of an issue but sometimes we need a side dish as well. Thanks for the post and please keep pursuing any possible clarification you can find.

ITMT - I will do what works for me and my systems until such time there is better clarification of the arguments, counter arguments and solid factual evidence.
 
Good question.

I'm wondering what the cost of your method entails...

100mL of Prime treats 1000 US gallons of water. For me, that is about 100 water changes or almost two years worth of dechlorinator for under $10. Gets even cheaper if you buy the larger containers.

Of course pure sodium thiosulfate is even cheaper but out of convenience of just picking it up at any LFS I know of I will always choose Prime.

As I have conceded, Prime, or any other ammonia neutralizer, may indeed be cheaper.

But, I don't remember the cost of the carbon. I bought it years ago. It was the best I could lay my hands on, so I doubt it was the cheapest I could find. Before that, I had been using a different type, that worked fine also, it was the cheapest I could find. I just like this carbon, I use now, better, I can't even really say why. It does 'just look better to me.' LOL

For a quart of zeolite, I think it was around $8 bucks. It is about 3 years old. As far as I can tell, it still regenerates with salt. Although you are supposed to regenerate with sodium chloride, I use potassium chloride, it is the stuff for potassium water softeners. It seems to work fine. Since there never is any ammonia, I am left to faith to believe it still works. I only have 3 tanks right now, seems to be working in all 3. In our last house, had 10 tanks, seemed to work in all them also.

If I wasn't clear before, let me be clear now, I am not advocating anyone cease or change their method of doing things. I refuse to even say the method I use is better. I am just interested in discussing what I do. I am not a threat to established methods used by any individuals or groups. I just like being around others who share an interest for the same hobby.
 
Biological regeneration makes sense.

If you are saying that heat is not necessary to regenerate carbon, and that carbon, like wine, actually becomes better over time, then you are going against basically everything that is written about carbon usage and will stir up a heck of a lot of controversy on an aquarium site (perhaps this is your intention).

Heat is necessary to regenerate carbon, that is why it is not practical for the home aquarist and why carbon is considered a disposable product.

Here is a link to a report published by the Environmental Protection Agency about Granular Activated Carbon Absorption and Regeneration:
http://www.epa.gov/owm/mtb/carbon_absorption.pdf

Carbon regeneration is accomplished primarily by thermal means. Organic matter within the pores of the carbon is oxidized and thus removed from the carbon surface. The two most widely used regeneration methods are rotary kiln and multiple hearth furnaces. Approximately 5 to 10 percent of the carbon is destroyed in the regeneration process or lost during transport and must be replaced with virgin carbon. The capacity of the regenerated carbon is slightly less than that of virgin carbon. Repeated regeneration degrades the carbon particles until an equilibrium is eventually reached providing predictable long term system performance.

No, I am not saying regeneration of carbon is not necessary, only a kook would claim that; I imagine it absolutely necessary. I am saying science has only known about biological regeneration of carbon for about 30 years, they are still getting used to the idea. Aquarium keepers have known about it for over a century, very old books mention it, just not by the term 'biological regeneration'; the old books just say old carbon is more valuable than new, and that new carbon must be aged. Science is just catching up now. No wonder we are just catching on, ourselves.

You mention thermic regeneration, this is another means of regeneration of carbon, perhaps better, I can accept that. From what I read, biological regeneration of carbon only results in 54% to 63% effectiveness. What that translates into is that you must use 2x as much carbon over the minimum amount necessary. Since I use 2x as a guide to the size of AC filter on my tanks, and since my AC's all carry carbon, the 2x carbon is already being done. As far as I can find in my readings, the 54% to 63% biological regeneration can go on indefinitely. I can say it apparently does. I can give someone an old carbon bag of mine, they can stick it on their yellow water tank, and it will clear it in a day or two. This I have done, and continue to do, I would like to see just how many years carbon can last.

In my own mind, and this is far from scientific, biological regeneration makes absolute sense. Ever see a pine tree in the high mountains growing out of nothing but a granite boulder? Its' roots are obviously able to extract all that is necessary from solid, fractured and crumbled rock. To then believe that micro organisms can extract the minerals and organics from carbon, to feed, and so cleanse and regenerate it, is but one tiny jump of the mind.

I believe carbon sellers are the only ones who would will resist the apparent ability of carbon to biologically regenerate itself, indefinitely. It is simply a case of 'follow the money', from my observations and readings.

Again, if Prime, or any other method works and you like it, continue it. We all benefit from people using many methods and giving us many choices.
 
Then, you might like these.

i have no stance about believing your theory or statements. A credible source wont really sway me either unless it is a standard aquarium person who posted up some before/after results of the testing. I just like seeing real world results from people who have nothing to gain or lose from research.

This contains two articles, I found them interesting. The brits were keeping fish before Americans, as near as I can tell:
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/greenfield straughan_activated carbon.html

Since I see no academics attached to their names, the articles appear to be written by laymen aquarium keepers with experience. I found the second article the most interesting.
 
Yes, and then there is that.

I have an issue with posted information garnered from the net. The source is often obfuscated as is the actual testing procedures. This makes it hard to compare against a known test. I would be more at ease if the source came from physical books and papers that have been accepted for publishing in a scientific journal.

I am not saying your sources are incorrect, just that there is no real way to find rebuttal or support for it. Postings on the net are usually a Reader's Digest version lacking in many details. They offer up meat and potatoes of an issue but sometimes we need a side dish as well. Thanks for the post and please keep pursuing any possible clarification you can find.

ITMT - I will do what works for me and my systems until such time there is better clarification of the arguments, counter arguments and solid factual evidence.

From my readings, standard tests are complex. And, they usually involve determining how well carbon can absorb a specific substance, or substances. New and old carbon use the same test. These tests usually involve using a phenol or iodine and seeing how much and how fast it is absorbed by the carbon. Old carbon seems to pass the tests, in my readings, and still remains a viable filtering medium.

But, I agree with you. These tests are usually academic, scientific and 'highbrow' and written in a jargon of universities and legaleze. I have to read them multiple times to garner the information they contain. I would not claim to even understand all they attempt to tell me.
 
if you cant test for the chlorine and chloramine how do you know its gone .
give us some test results that you have done and not a scitific page that states its possible (all but in a scientific experiment) and more ppl will give this thread some credability .

until that point i think you are fighting a loosing battle and if you are willing to go this far in purifying your water just get ro/di unit .
 
also old aquatics books are of no use in new world aquatics heck of alot has changed in 5 years of me keeping aquatics never mind as far back as you are talking . 10 years ago when my grandad kept fish , if you did a water change at all you were stupid as anything old was better than new , including water so i dont see how this arguement has any backup of any sort . to me you are just throwing pages upon pages of science reports at us none of which have been proven in the day to day use of hundreds of aquarists
 
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