Of chlorine, chloramine, carbon and zeolite.

You have a good point.

if you cant test for the chlorine and chloramine how do you know its gone .
give us some test results that you have done and not a scitific page that states its possible (all but in a scientific experiment) and more ppl will give this thread some credability .

until that point i think you are fighting a loosing battle and if you are willing to go this far in purifying your water just get ro/di unit .

You are correct. A friend of mine who is much more scientific has preformed these tests for me. This was sometime ago. So, I don't know the carbon or the zeolite is working now, nor how effective or fast it is. I will see him next week and inquire to the test kit he employed and the points you mentioned.

But, the bond between the chlorine and ammonia is so weak, the UV on my tank will split the chloramine into its' basic components, so, either way, the carbon and zeolite must work, if they remain viable.

I should have mentioned the ability of UV to do this. But, in prior tests, done a year or more ago, UV was halted during the test. The net makes reference to UV and chloramine. In fact, in the RO units you carry a 5 gal bottle to and fill, they employ UV. I suspect they use UV for a like purpose, and not just sterilization.

Yes, there are many more observations and tests which can be done, I should be about them. I will mention this to my friend, he loves this stuff.
 
Aquarium keepers have known about it for over a century, very old books mention it, just not by the term 'biological regeneration'; the old books just say old carbon is more valuable than new, and that new carbon must be aged.

In these very old books, undergravel filtration and/or box filters was/were probably the method of filtration in use. Back in that day, carbon and floss were the filtration media the hobby had available to it. Eventually, carbon stops doing its "thing" - removing odors, discoloration - and becomes biological media. This is widely accepted. It was probably an exciting discovery and along with gravel, I bet carbon was an early biological media. There is specifically engineered biological media now which does a much better job than carbon or gravel for colonizing nitrifying bacteria. But this is not why most people use carbon...

If you are using ample amounts of old carbon in your filter, I am sure it is doing a fine job neutralizing ammonia and nitrite. But will years old carbon remove discoloration and odors from the water? Will it remove dissolved organic compounds? Will it absorb pheromones and metabolites? Medications? This is what people expect carbon to do.

In my opinion, the pine tree growing out of the boulder has almost nothing to do with what you are proposing. What you are saying is merely that not all plants need soil and many of them can get enough nutrients from rocks. This is well known, and many plants actually thrive in rocky conditions. In Greece there are plenty of fig trees growing out of the sides of buildings, and a little ways from the beach there are plenty of flowers growing in nothing but sand. Plenty of our food is grown hydroponically. What this has to do with bacteria cleansing the carbon and keeping it infinitely useful in our aquariums is lost on me, unfortunately.

If science only discovered microbial regeneration 30 years ago, but select hobbyists have been in on "the secret" for years, how come we don't hear more about this? We've already figured out the secret formula to Seachem's Excel and how to duplicate it, how to use PMDD instead of liquid proprietary ferts, how to use alternative substrates which work as well or nearly as well as proprietary substrates...

WinstonCourt said:
I believe carbon sellers are the only ones who would will resist the apparent ability of carbon to biologically regenerate itself, indefinitely.

Aquarists from all around the globe are constantly looking for ways to save money - you would think there would be some expert out there saying "don't replace your carbon - in an aquarium, it cleanses itself!" :screwy: We already know how to recharge Purigen, Zeolite, crushed coral gravel - why would we not have proliferated the information that carbon recharges itself in an aquarium and continues to function over a span of years? (In the capacity it was intended for...see above.)

I am sorry if I seem narrow minded, but I am just concerned you are spreading misinformation. The scientific literature you link to, in many ways does not apply to aquariums. I feel I cannot apply reports like this: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/104537200/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
Where they are filtering volatile organic compounds (alcohol, ketones, esters, aromatic and chlorinated compounds) to carbon and its role in filtering dissolved organic carbons/compounds in an aquarium.

You are oversimplifying, I believe - taking one concept in one application and applying it to situations that are not equivalent.

I cannot articulate the scientific explanation for why carbon doesn't last forever in aquariums, and why in laboratories it can be microbially regenerated, but I don't think it microbially regenerates in aquariums simply because we would have heard by now if it did.

Perhaps, there is a difference between the bacteria needed to regenerate carbon and the bacteria present in our aquariums. There's all kinds of bacteria out there - even bacteria that eat oil. Only certain bacteria is in our aquariums. Perhaps saturating carbon in "sludge remover" or some other kind of heterotrophic bacteria concentration would in fact cleanse the carbon. Perhaps it needs denitrifying bacteria such as that found in anaerobic zones...and none of these are practical to culture vs. the cost of replacing spent carbon. Perhaps aquariums have some of this bacteria, but not enough to cleanse the carbon. Because again, more than a handful of alert hobbyists such as yourself would have noticed carbon cleansing itself...(although many have noticed that it is a fine growing media for nitrifying bacteria).

I am sorry if it seems like I am bashing you or your post. I don't mean to, I would hate to see a newbie just rinsing their filter cartridges and thinking they are continuing to work. They should either use biological media and floss, or replace the cartridges regularly. How regularly all depends on a multitude of factors.

Lastly, this article is an interesting read:
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/carbon.htm
 
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Friend, you do not insult me.

Eventually, carbon stops doing its "thing" - removing odors, discoloration - and becomes biological media. This is widely accepted.

It is widely accepted in aquarium forums, apparently. And, until fairly recently, widely accepted in scientific circles also.

But, tests with phenols, iodine, etc. seem to prove that carbon remains viable much longer than thought, and has the ability to biologically regenerate in systems such as an aquarium. And, I don't find old carbon looses any ability to absorb and halt tank odors or clear yellow tinted water. In fact, I think people only think it does, they never take the time to check it for themselves. I mean, an ultra-clean-freak must vomit at the mere idea of using years old carbon. LOL

I cannot debate or answer your post effectively. In fact, your post centers on all the things I am watching, researching, observing and inquiring of. The best I can do is tell of my observations, and these are easy to rebuff. Next best thing is to quote current research and findings available on the net, I accept the findings of university and government research organizations. Others may refuse.

It is simple for me. My fish are healthy, my water has the clarity of air itself, the old carbon appears to halt aquarium odors, and yellow tinting, etc. I dream of a mass spectrometer and gas chromatograph, just lack the funds to purchase one, and the education to use them effectively. Until then, I have but a layman's equipment and ability to access these things, and the help of a friend.

I can take pictures of my tanks to prove the apparent success of what I am employing, I can do that.
 
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that artical on the trop tank is writen by a friend of mine he is very knowledgeable and runs the best ( voted for 6 years running) aquatics shop in the UK
 
WOW, you are fortunate.

that artical on the trop tank is writen by a friend of mine he is very knowledgeable and runs the best ( voted for 6 years running) aquatics shop in the UK

You are fortunate to have such a friend. That is so cool, I envy you! I find it is through such friends that my own experience grows, and I don't just mean aquariums.

If you pick up on any tips, advice or such from him, I would be thankful to have you offer it.
 
My fish are healthy, my water has the clarity of air itself, the old carbon appears to halt aquarium odors, and yellow tinting, etc.

Your aquarium is well maintained. If you took all the carbon out, it would be the equivalent of taking out biological media, which would disrupt things. However if you slowly replace your aged carbon with Matrix: http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Matrix.html
I think you would find your aquarium to do even better.

I'm glad what you're doing works for you, but you have to understand that you are saying something that is completely contrary to what has been written and observed...it is not just the salespeople saying it.

Anyone with a hang on the back filter has observed that you can rinse and rinse the cartridges, they will work a little, but pop in a new one and suddenly the water is crystal clear, with an almost bluish white tinge. Since all of these power filters now come with some "bio" component, there is not much disruption from removing the carbon which has become biological media, and replacing it with fresh carbon with clean pores ready to absorb DOCs.

This may not be as apparent if you perform regular weekly water changes, but even in a well maintained aquarium, popping in fresh carbon always makes the water sparkle a bit more. Ditto for Purigen.

There are other ways of getting crystal clear water. And your fish definitely appreciate a water change more than they do fresh carbon. But that's not what this is about...

Your well maintained aquarium is really no proof that carbon works endlessly. A well maintained aquarium has clear water that doesn't smell, with or without carbon.

Anyone who has observed carbon "getting old" and then replaced it with fresh, only to find their aquarium sparkles a bit brighter, raise your hand! :hi:
 
Well, not really.

This may not be as apparent if you perform regular weekly water changes, but even in a well maintained aquarium, popping in fresh carbon always makes the water sparkle a bit more. Ditto for Purigen.

There are other ways of getting crystal clear water. And your fish definitely appreciate a water change more than they do fresh carbon. But that's not what this is about...

Your well maintained aquarium is really no proof that carbon works endlessly. A well maintained aquarium has clear water that doesn't smell, with or without carbon.

Actually, I am lazy. I change my water as infrequently as is humanly possible. I got into the habit through lazy-ness, come on, doesn't everyone?

But, my sodium is already 30 ppm out of the tap, sometimes more. Running zeolite, I must surely increase this. Over time, the plants will deplete the sodium down to where I can grow salt intolerant plants, even through zeolite recharges, apparently not that much ammonia is missing the plants and biological organisms feeding on it, so the sodium exchange is minimal, apparently.

I know the last time I changed water in the 55g was over two months ago. A neglected 30 has gone since I moved into the new place, March 8th I believe. It looks fine, clear as crystal. But then, there is a chunk of Java Moss in it which would choke a horse. I believe Java Moss is the most effective plant I have ever found which will tie up sodium. This is difficult to determine though, most sodium test kits range is too high to be of any use in freshwater.

If there are any effects observed in my tanks due to water changes, it is because of the lack of them.

And, yes, this is off topic and I DO NOT recommend my method of water changes, absolutely not. My personal guardian angel just allows me to get away with it. :-)

Your argument, if it is a function of the carbon or the carbon based lifeforms which live on the carbon, of what is causing the observed results, is simply beyond my simple abilities to measure and prove. As stated, for that I fall back on material available, from credible sources, on the net. Anyone can research 'biological regeneration' and 'carbon' and draw their own conclusions. I don't expect total agreement; really, I don't expect total agreement with anything in life.
 
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Oh goodness, not another "fewer is better" water changes person ;) Granted, I understand your tap water is far from ideal.

I will retire from this topic for a bit and see what others have to say, I feel I am monopolizing the conversation right now.
 
Good input.

Oh goodness, not another "fewer is better" water changes person ;) Granted, I understand your tap water is far from ideal.

I will retire from this topic for a bit and see what others have to say, I feel I am monopolizing the conversation right now.

You ask the right questions. You question the questionable. You are on topic, with a keen sense of suspicion, all good qualities in my book.

I am far from being an expert, consider me an experimenter.

Yeah, the water changes are embarrassing, I know.
 
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