On to the next problem.........

Whoa! Mooch, wait! All your fish are going to die! Don't trust anyone. Especially the fish. Oh, they'll act like there is no difference to them, but in actuality they will be harboring terrible feelings toward you. They'll begin sneaking out of the tank at night and trying to strangle you. You know what you always assumed was drool that came out of your mouth as you slept? That's actually moisture trails from the fish! They were in your mouth, trying to force your tongue back so you'd swallow it! Yeah. Fish are nasty and mean.

RTR knows more about this than me, that's for darn sure. I'd trust him. Also, FWIW, Fish don't seem to mind gradual change at all. CO2 will be a gradual change.
 
Mooch28 said:
Sorry, but could you put that in more simple terms…
Click to expand...

A lot of how the fish works, biochemically, is based on osmosis. Happens to us, too. Lungs, kidneys. Blood cells. Chemicals travelling across a membrane and what not, trying to establish an equilibrium, traveling from higher concentrations to lower and visa versa.

We normally associate pH-levels with Hardness levels. We tend to think that when a fish goes from one pH to a very different one suddenly and then dies, its because of the pH. RTR is saying that its not because of the pH, but because of the sudden change in the dissolved salts that make up the Hardness or the Alkalinity of the water. The GH and the KH and whatever else is in there adds up to what's called the Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). It can mess up the fish's mechanisms for taking some chemicals in and for pushing other chemicals out.

If you depress the pH using CO2, you're really not altering the TDS so it has no effect on those osmosis mechanisms.

If were worried about the CO2 and your buffer and you bumped up the KH by tossing in a big old pile of baking soda, well then that would suddenly and radically alter the TDS, the osmolarity, and could kill the fish. The pH would rise coincidentally. The rising pH wouldn't be what killed the fish. Just something that happened at the same time.

HTH
 
Harlock said:
Whoa! Mooch, wait! All your fish are going to die! Don't trust anyone. Especially the fish. Oh, they'll act like there is no difference to them, but in actuality they will be harboring terrible feelings toward you. They'll begin sneaking out of the tank at night and trying to strangle you. You know what you always assumed was drool that came out of your mouth as you slept? That's actually moisture trails from the fish! They were in your mouth, trying to force your tongue back so you'd swallow it! Yeah. Fish are nasty and mean.

RTR knows more about this than me, that's for darn sure. I'd trust him. Also, FWIW, Fish don't seem to mind gradual change at all. CO2 will be a gradual change.
Click to expand...

:thud:

You had me craping my pants for a second.............BUT just a second! :D


Oh man, fish can really bring stress in your life :soda:
 
Mooch28 said:
Sorry, but could you put that in more simple terms......
Thanks.
Click to expand...

:eek: I used "physically transport" instead of getting into metabolic pumps, osmosis (which isn't physical on the fishs end I know), diffusion and other mumbo jumbo....
I even used "stuff" instead of ions and metabolic products :confused:
I know I know, noone listens to me...they see RTR and only read what he has to say...
Well, can't blame you for that! :)
 
beviking said:
:eek: I used "physically transport" instead of getting into metabolic pumps, osmosis (which isn't physical on the fishs end I know), diffusion and other mumbo jumbo....
I even used "stuff" instead of ions and metabolic products :confused:
I know I know, noone listens to me...they see RTR and only read what he has to say...
Well, can't blame you for that! :)
Click to expand...

hehe, sorry. I did read your pst after i replied to RTR, and it did make much more sense too me :D
 
LOL! Carpguy got it, or already had it. Most folks don't ever think about osmosis, unless they are using RO, but what folk talk about as "pH shock" is 95% sure, at least, to be osmotic shock. FW fish are hypertonic to FW, they have more minerals in their blood and tissues than the water around them, therefore water always, repeat always, moves into their bodies. They dump a lot of urine but relatively few minerals in it - to get rid of the excess water and keep their blood and tissue concentrations stable. As a rule they do not drink - with all the water moving in (on the osmotic gradient), there is no need. They also actively transport certain minerals out via their gills, and some either actively or passively out through the gills (ammonium/ammonia). Fine, they are happy and healthy. Then the caretaker dumps in a tablespoon per gallon baking soda (bicarb). Bingo! Water TDS skyrockets (pH does too), water is not moving into the fish at the same rate, gills are exposed to radically different water than seconds before, some active transports shut down, some get speeded up (conditions are now different), passive transports get some of the same effect, fish have to attempt to re-adjust their entire homeotasis setup (think of homeostasis as keeping things going smoothly on a clean dry uncrowded highway on cruise control, compare the TDS change to a sudden white-out with snow). Some will make it ok, others end up in the ditch, or the worst case, the morgue.

The pH changes from CO3 do not hit TDS like mineral/buffer/soluble solid addition, and as several have pointed out, they are not sudden. Corollary: What is the best way to adapt a fish from radically different water at the store to your tank? Answer: Dropwise addition of tank water to a catch bucket or utility bucket with the fish still in the water to which it is already adapted. the dropwise changes are slow, not shocking, and if the differences are great between the two waters it can take hours - but it will save the fish. Parallel: Gaseous addition of CO2 to our tanks is exactly like dropwise addition of different water. The whole water volume does not change quickly, but slowly, and the TDS change is minimal if detectable at all by hobby equipment.

Does that make sense?

Aside: Never hesitate to question "authority". Nobody knows it all. That is part of why I am on these boards - I am still learning and hope that does not ever stop.

Edit: Besides which, as I started out as a biochemist/physiologist, it would be pretty embarrasing if I did not know some of this stuff - I did get paid for that.
 
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RTR said:
LOL! Carpguy got it, or already had it. Most folks don't ever think about osmosis, unless they are using RO, but what folk talk about as "pH shock" is 95% sure, at least, to be osmotic shock. FW fish are hypertonic to FW, they have more minerals in their blood and tissues than the water around them, therefore water always, repeat always, moves into their bodies. They dump a lot of urine but relatively few minerals in it - to get rid of the excess water and keep their blood and tissue concentrations stable. As a rule they do not drink - with all the water moving in (on the osmotic gradient), there is no need. They also actively transport certain minerals out via their gills, and some either actively or passively out through the gills (ammonium/ammonia). Fine, they are happy and healthy. Then the caretaker dumps in a tablespoon per gallon baking soda (bicarb). Bingo! Water TDS skyrockets (pH does too), water is not moving into the fish at the same rate, gills are exposed to radically different water than seconds before, some active transports shut down, some get speeded up (conditions are now different), passive transports get some of the same effect, fish have to attempt to re-adjust their entire homeotasis setup (think of homeostasis as keeping things going smoothly on a clean dry uncrowded highway on cruise control, compare the TDS change to a sudden white-out with snow). Some will make it ok, others end up in the ditch, or the worst case, the morgue.

The pH changes from CO3 do not hit TDS like mineral/buffer/soluble solid addition, and as several have pointed out, they are not sudden. Corollary: What is the best way to adapt a fish from radically different water at the store to your tank? Answer: Dropwise addition of tank water to a catch bucket or utility bucket with the fish still in the water to which it is already adapted. the dropwise changes are slow, not shocking, and if the differences are great between the two waters it can take hours - but it will save the fish. Parallel: Gaseous addition of CO2 to our tanks is exactly like dropwise addition of different water. The whole water volume does not change quickly, but slowly, and the TDS change is minimal if detectable at all by hobby equipment.

Does that make sense?

Aside: Never hesitate to question "authority". Nobody knows it all. That is part of why I am on these boards - I am still learning and hope that does not ever stop.

Edit: Besides which, as I started out as a biochemist/physiologist, it would be pretty embarrasing if I did not know some of this stuff - I did get paid for that.
Click to expand...


Wow, thank RTR, that made complete sense! You really do know your stuff. One question though, how exactly do you do the drip method for new fish? I could never figure out how to get the tube to drop a few drops at a time. Do you suck on it, let some water out, then let it go.....?
 
well if it is airpump tubeing I tie a simple knot in it and loosen or tighten to gain the flow rate to what I want.

:bowing: :bowing: RTR Nobody knows it all. That is part of why I am on these boards - I am still learning and hope that does not ever stop.


that is as impressive as the knowlege gained over the years, I hope I should be as fortunate to say the same as I continue to live.
 
When I was younger ;) I did the airline with a knot bit, but small adjustments are a PITA. I have plastic air valves and use those as flow valves. Set for slow drip. After volume doubles, remove 1/2 and continue dripping; repeat a couple of times and you are there.
 
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