ordering from "saltwaterfish.com"

Didn't mean just for you to order...just wanted to show that I took your input and am applying it on a trial basis.

For bryopsis I get those lettuce nudis on demand. I have four now but they were supposed to ship friday. THe guy never called called me to order them though so I suppose I have to wait until Monday to see if he says anything.
 
I went to your page cuz a friend of mine is looking to buy a cleanup crew, but she wants a warranty cuz it's her first time doing mail order... So, I was reading your warranty and found this part:

"Your water must test within these acceptable ranges. Ammonia 0, Alkalinity 2.5 to 5.0 meq/L, Calcium 400 to 475 mg/L, Nitrate less than 25ppm, Nitrite 0, pH 8.2-8.4, and SG 1.021-1.025. You will have to include a separate water sample with your critter if returning. "

I agree with most of your parameters except the calc... Only reef tanks need to have calc of that high a concentration, and her FO system obviously isn't going to qualify for your warranty.

Setting some standards is a good thing, but to have such specific requirements as this on a warranty is a bit much... Not everyone that needs a cleanup crew is keeping a reef tank, ya know?

She asked me for a good place to get her crew and I sent her to your page... I hadn't read your policy yet, cuz I didn't expect to be ordering anything for a long time, but she is ordering sometime this week I believe... So far, yer not gonna make a dime off of her...

Tweak yer policy, then lemme know ;)
 
Well, all crabs and other crustaceans (sp?) need this much calcium to thrive, even though lower levels don't kill them instantly, it will in time...

Anyway, if I were in the states, i'd order from small vendors like Phish.
 
Thanks kev and sponge bob.

Ravencad, I think you're being extremely critical of just one TINY aspect of the entire guarantee. As I explained before, my claims when I have any, are on a case by case business. Second, NSW calcium levels are between 425 and 450! I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people are at the very least changing their water. Simple water changes, when you have little demand should be more than enough to keep your calcium stable. Along with calcium being stable goes alk and pH. They all work together.

60% of the places I looked at while deciding my criteria have a temperature clause. When temps along the route are below 40 and above 90 degrees then the guarantee is void. Well come on now, tell me one part of the country that doesn't have temps outside that range at any given time of the year?

The idea behind the water parameters is general for the sake of brevity. A little common sense goes a long way. Surely you don't expect me to say...

flame angels are very sensitive to nitrates, for these to qualify for the gurantee the nitrates must be less than 10.

skunk clowns are very sesitive to copper, yours must be below blah blah blah.

If you're buying sps your calcium must be above 425

If you're buying mushrooms your calc must be above 375

if you're buying star polyps your calcium must be above 390

Etc etc etc.

Instead I place a range which is a little less than nsw. Very fair IMHO especially considering that there's a 7!!! day guarantee!

Now, back to the common sense. If someone orders a clean up crew and says they had deaths and sends me back everything as needed, do you think I'm going to measure what the caclium was? Of course not. What does it matter what the calcium was? The chances are they were probably killed by ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites if not from something else that wanted them as dinner.

If someone makes a claim on sps then you bet I am going to check what the calcium was as that is a critical part of keeping them alive and well.

In all honesty, if someone is so hesitant to spend 10 cents because I list that calcium levels, of all things, should be at least close to nsw levels in a 7 day guarantee, then they are probably extremely fussy to begin with and will find fault with every minute detail of the order thus being quite difficult to please. For the 10 cents? I could take it or leave it.

Thanks again for your input, but that is not going to change. I think I'm being VERY fair in my criteria for offering a guarantee which is an industry leader and I can only find one other place who offers it and none who isn't a big huge corporation.

TTYL
 
Ravencad, I think you're being extremely critical of just one TINY aspect of the entire guarantee.

Might be tiny, but it gives you a way out of the guarantee which leaves your customer out in the cold... Not saying yer gonna take it, but I like to have ALL my bases covered when I'm doing business...


As I explained before, my claims when I have any, are on a case by case business.

I, as a consumer, want it in writing. I'm sorry, but the "good old boy" system don't work via email... If you were local and I could walk in, chit chat, maybe that would be different, but on the web, a policy, is a policy, is a policy...

Second, NSW calcium levels are between 425 and 450! I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people are at the very least changing their water. Simple water changes, when you have little demand should be more than enough to keep your calcium stable. Along with calcium being stable goes alk and pH. They all work together.

I tested my change water which is made with Instant Ocean the other day: 320ppm on Calc... My non-depleted change water won't even pass your requirements.. =)

60% of the places I looked at while deciding my criteria have a temperature clause. When temps along the route are below 40 and above 90 degrees then the guarantee is void. Well come on now, tell me one part of the country that doesn't have temps outside that range at any given time of the year?

Yer point being? How is a shipping policy the same as a very nit-picky requiment on calc? Totally unrelated...

The idea behind the water parameters is general for the sake of brevity. A little common sense goes a long way. Surely you don't expect me to say...

flame angels are very sensitive to nitrates, for these to qualify for the gurantee the nitrates must be less than 10.

skunk clowns are very sesitive to copper, yours must be below blah blah blah.

If you're buying sps your calcium must be above 425

If you're buying mushrooms your calc must be above 375

if you're buying star polyps your calcium must be above 390

Etc etc etc.

I think the people ordering those items are, or at least should be, aware of those requirements... Perhaps listing them with the individual species would help to ensure such a blanket policy isn't required? Most people that order sw fish are very sensitive to their fish's needs, and if made aware of them properly, will make sure they meet them...

Instead I place a range which is a little less than nsw. Very fair IMHO especially considering that there's a 7!!! day guarantee!

7 days is what everyone gives... Ya want an award?

Now, back to the common sense. If someone orders a clean up crew and says they had deaths and sends me back everything as needed, do you think I'm going to measure what the caclium was?

Acording to your policy, yes I do think you are going to...

Of course not. What does it matter what the calcium was?

It matters FOR YOUR POLICY...

The chances are they were probably killed by ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites if not from something else that wanted them as dinner.

I agree, your policy should be adjusted to reflect that those water parameters do NOT matter instead of so clearly implying that they do and will disqualify me from the guarantee unless I meet them...

If someone makes a claim on sps then you bet I am going to check what the calcium was as that is a critical part of keeping them alive and well.

Fair enough, having a policy specifically for SPS or anything else that requires those levels of calc and alk would be WONDERFUL, I agree that would be a very warranted policy... But a blanket policy saying (or at least implying) that if your Percula clown (just an example..) dies and your calc isn't 400ppm, then you are out of luck, is not a good policy IMHO...

In all honesty, if someone is so hesitant to spend 10 cents because I list that calcium levels, of all things, should be at least close to nsw levels in a 7 day guarantee, then they are probably extremely fussy to begin with and will find fault with every minute detail of the order thus being quite difficult to please.

Am I the only person that reads the details on policies before I order? I really doubt that I am ;) My friend that needs the cleaning crew is the one that pointed it out to me, so obviously she was reading the policies before she orders as well...

For the 10 cents? I could take it or leave it.

Myself and 3 friends just ordered about $400 from Live Aquaria... That's a lot of dimes :D

Thanks again for your input, but that is not going to change. I think I'm being VERY fair in my criteria for offering a guarantee which is an industry leader and I can only find one other place who offers it and none who isn't a big huge corporation.

Then I'll continue ordering from Live Aquaria/Etropicals and I'll suggest that to anyone that asks for a good place to shop... The friend buying the clean up crew ordered from them today after seeing your response to my concern... Her order will be here Friday... I have another friend currently cycling her tank that will be needing a crew in probably 4 weeks... Lemme know if you change your policy =)
 
Might be tiny, but it gives you a way out of the guarantee which leaves your customer out in the cold... Not saying yer gonna take it, but I like to have ALL my bases covered when I'm doing business...
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You don't seem to understand that I too must have all my bases covered. If I was looking for a way out of the guarantee, I just wouldn't offer it. Plain and simple. I really don't appreciate the notion I am simply looking for a way out. I'm quite active on as many boards as I have time for and I actually formed my guarantee from your input!

I took your feedback, and implemented something which I feel is very fair and quite competitive. Once we get over the calcium then you could come at with me your very same example that your fish only friend doesn't need to keep her sg at 1.021-1.025 since many fish only folks, and many wholesalers and LFS keep their sg at 1.017. So now I gotta change my criteria to include those people and then have countless stars, sps, and many other sg sensitive critters perish? No thanks. You can pick it apart all day long. Fact remains it's extremely fair.

I, as a consumer, want it in writing. I'm sorry, but the "good old boy" system don't work via email... If you were local and I could walk in, chit chat, maybe that would be different, but on the web, a policy, is a policy, is a policy...
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Well, I can't please everyone all the time. I'm fortunate enough to have run into enough great people in this hobby that a good solid relationship is better than anything they can find in writing in their minds.

Yer point being? How is a shipping policy the same as a very nit-picky requiment on calc? Totally unrelated...
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My point being? Well my point is anyone can select anything from anywhere and be critical about it.

I think the people ordering those items are, or at least should be, aware of those requirements...
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Well here's where being in the business gives me an advantage. In utopia this would be a true statement. But in reality? I don;t even want to comment.

Most people that order sw fish are very sensitive to their fish's needs, and if made aware of them properly, will make sure they meet them...
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Again, another statement that would be wonderful if true. Maybe it's those rose colored glasses. I am fond of wearing them myself. ;)

7 days is what everyone gives... Ya want an award?
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What? Where? Only other place I have run across that gives seven days in live aquaria. Can you give me a few links of "every place gives that?"

Acording to your policy, yes I do think you are going to...
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Nice to see you are calling me a liar right out of the gate. I already said I would not. I might have to if I looked at everyone the same way you look at me. Obviously my explaining the same thing over and over to you is useless. Again, I don't appreciate the implication.


Am I the only person that reads the details on policies before I order? I really doubt that I am My friend that needs the cleaning crew is the one that pointed it out to me, so obviously she was reading the policies before she orders as well...
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No, probably not. But I do believe you and your friend are one of the few who wouldn't bother emailing me or calling me to talk or at least clarify.

Myself and 3 friends just ordered about $400 from Live Aquaria... That's a lot of dimes
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Yeah it is. But I could have sworn you mentioned one dime before. Not 4000. You really think that I would leave someone who spent that much money with me out in the cold if something happened through no fault of their own? Come on now. I know a repeat customer is better than any other kind! Wait a sec, yeah, you probably do think that despite my saying several times earlier I wouldn't. Afterall, you've already implied I'm dishonest.

Then I'll continue ordering from Live Aquaria/Etropicals and I'll suggest that to anyone that asks for a good place to shop... The friend buying the clean up crew ordered from them today after seeing your response to my concern... Her order will be here Friday... I have another friend currently cycling her tank that will be needing a crew in probably 4 weeks
... Lemme know if you change your policy =)
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That's fine, this is the great country of America and you and your friends are free to do what you wish just as I am.

My policy will not change. I have not seen an increase in business due to the new guarantee so I could probably give it the heave ho and still charlie mike like I have been these past couple of years. Along with my guarantee goes all the service that I mentioned in countless previous posts in this very same thread. No partial fills, pictures of the actual item you are receiving, actually having the livestock in my posession when we are on the phone instead of housing it across the country etc etc etc. Obviously you think that doesn't amount to a hill of beans. That just fine.
 
Tell me...

Your policy clearly states:
"Your water must test within these acceptable ranges. Ammonia 0, Alkalinity 2.5 to 5.0 meq/L, Calcium 400 to 475 mg/L, Nitrate less than 25ppm, Nitrite 0, pH 8.2-8.4, and SG 1.021-1.025. You will have to include a separate water sample with your critter if returning. "

And now I see this crap because I expect you to follow that policy:

"Nice to see you are calling me a liar right out of the gate. I already said I would not. I might have to if I looked at everyone the same way you look at me. Obviously my explaining the same thing over and over to you is useless. Again, I don't appreciate the implication."

How am I calling you a liar because I expect you to confirm my water meets the requirments per YOUR OWN POLICY? Ooooooooh, I'm sposta to assume you won't cuz you've told me, man to man? Talk about rose colored glasses... I'm sorry, but I don't drop $400 on an order to a place with the flimsy defense of "But you said you wouldn't test that......." Please, to assume you, the BUSINESS man, won't pick and choose when to adhere to a policy is truly the height of stupidity... You will apply it if it helps your bottom line, just like anyone else...

If you have no intention of testing it, then it shouldn't be part of the policy... PERIOD..

You said it hasnt boosted business yet... Perhaps thats cuz I'm not the only one that reads the fine print ;)

But whatever, do what ya want, I'm happy to keep doing business with known quantities... Best of luck, to you and your customers...
 
Please, to assume you, the BUSINESS man, won't pick and choose when to adhere to a policy is truly the height of stupidity... You will apply it if it helps your bottom line, just like anyone else...
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Well you know what they say what happens when you assume....just like you're doing now.


If you have no intention of testing it, then it shouldn't be part of the policy... PERIOD..
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See, here's where there's the communication break down. I NEVER said I have no intentions of testing for calcium. Ever. What I said was that the calcium criteria is placed as a generalization. You threw a calcium/clean up crew example at me and I showed you how it does not apply. I then told you, I thought clearly, that what would the calcium have to do with the clean up crew, however, if a claim was made on an SPS then you can bet I'll test the calcium. I'll go quote it since you missed it the first time and are now putting words in my mouth.

Now, back to the common sense. If someone orders a clean up crew and says they had deaths and sends me back everything as needed, do you think I'm going to measure what the caclium was? Of course not. What does it matter what the calcium was? The chances are they were probably killed by ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites if not from something else that wanted them as dinner.
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There...no misunderstandings now. I will test it when it's warranted so therefor it stays.

Now you told me every place out there has a 7 day stay alive guarantee. I knew this to be a huge eexaggeration, but you did show me one other place that did it that I was not aware of. A huge company who wouldn't feel the hit when a claim was made any more than they notice the penny they dropped at the quicky mart, but still, they offer one nonetheless.

I went to check it out. I'm curious as to how you believe my calcium criteria is out of line but their temperature one is not. I asked before. Can you tell me one place along the the country that isn't above 90 or below 40 at any time during the year? I think you'd be very hard pressed to do so. According to their warranty, you might have a month or two where you can order and collect on a claim for the entire year, of course this depends where you live in the country and what route your critters took to get there.

Now one of the other big places out there is marine depot and you even mention them to me. You've stated many times how you read the fine print as you put it. Have you actually read theirs?? Not only do they have a temp clause but they also have a calcium. Higher than mine to boot! And? Phosphate! And? Carbon dioxide! And? Alkalinity! And? Last but not least dissolved oxygen. You're trying to point out places with better guarantees because you think nsw levels of calcium are out of line and uncalled for?

You told me you can put aside the lack of a full 7 day guarantee from marine depot because they don't have as many restrictions as I do. They have more, but anyways, you can over look that, but you can't over look my calcium requirements because of all the other services I offer. OK. Looks to me as though instead of it being constructive criticsm you're just having fun trying to blow me apart. Funny, I seem to recall you having suggested seriously that I require a water sample BEFORE I allow someone to buy from me. You think having NSW calcium levels is too much, but your suggestion is more earth bound?

I'd like to kindly ask that the discussion stop unless it's actually constructive and not just all out bashing. I'm trying my best to keep everyones interests in mind here (yes including mine...I know I know shame on me!)
 
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