PH Dropped Etc...

[cranberry]

Hi

I'm new; be gentle

Long Story Short:

Two fish had what looked like a fungal infections (per LFS), so I was instructed to treat w/ Quick Cure. After about a 11 days on Quick Cure (I did water changes as instructed), I noticed that one of my Gold Mollies started floating nose down, swimming on his side, hiding, fasting, swimming w/ a "C" shape to his body, shallow breathing. I think he has swim bladder; what do y'all think?? I had the water tested last night ... PH is low (6.5 if I remember correctly).

Could a PH drop have cause swim bladder? (That's if it sounds like swim bladder to y'all). At any rate, LFS said to stop the Quick Cure treatments, change 20% water, put carbon back in filter, run it as is for about an hour, then add PH-Up. I did that last night, Mr. Molly is still having problems. LFS said if the PH is the problem, Mr. Molly would feel relief over the next 24 hours. I realize it hasn't been 24 hours yet, but I'm really worried. I found him stuck to the filter tube this morning. I gave him a little nudge to free him and he went back to his erratic ways.

I also have a pleco who started changing colors on me too. Could the PH make him do that? I'm so attached to my Pleco, even more so than the Molly. I want ALL of them to be well!

Please help. I use the Zero Water filter to filter the water for my water changes. I add Stress Coat and (per LFS) aquarium salt; I made a judgement call and only used half dose of the aquarium salt since I have a pleco in there. But LFS has PLENTY of plecos in their tanks and they say they add aquarium salt to ALL of their tanks.

By the by ... My marble molly and red eyed tetra still have their fungal infections. Marble Molly responded to the Quick Cure, but Red Eyed Tetra did not. I used half dose of the Quick Cure b/c of the tetra that are in the tank (Black Neon Tetra and the Red Eyed).

I'm just so confused!! Prior to these ailments, I thought the tank was well managed, so I don't understand what I'm doing wrong.

Here's the routine I used prior to these ailments:

>Feed twice a day. I never had a need to remove any food b/c I only feed as much as they can eat in 2 minutes.

>15% water change every Friday evening. I used the filtered water w/ stress coat and pre-dissolved aquarium salt. I heated the water to the established temperature of the aquarium, then added it to tank.

>I used to do gravel vac every Friday too, by LFS said to stop that and only vac once a month.

>Filter change once a month.

What am I doing wrong? :help:

 

[Holly9937]

A couple of quick things... The salt is really not necessary. Is 6.5 your normal ph, or has it changed? What is it in the aged water that you use? Thats really not that low, and most of the fish will be able to adapt to that just fine. Adding ph up/down can cause the ph to fluctuate which can be more stressful on the fish. When you say change the filter,what do you mean by that (what exactly do you do?) If you remove everything at once you will create a mini cycle everytime you remove it all. The best way is to only change one thing every couple-few weeks, and if you have sponges at all, those can go for months without being replaced, they just need a good rinsing in TANK water. I would continue to do your gravel vacs every week with the water change, it basically just removes waste and uneaten food, which isn't good for anything, and if you're doing a water change anyway, its just as easy to do it with a gravel vac.

How long has the tank been set up? And how long have you had these fish? Size of the tank? Also do you know what your amonia and nitriite are? Have the LFS give you actual numbers and not just "good or bad". Your own test kits are even better.

Also, what exactly does the "infection" look like? And if you can, slow down the flow on the filter, if the fish is weak, it will help prevent him from getting sucked onto the intake, most filters can be adjusted, sometimes it is on the top of the filter or even on the part that hangs in the water

 

[mishi8]

I don't think the issue is swim bladder, I think it's probably water quality. I took a look at the link for the Zero Water Filter, and wonder if that may be causing issues for you. What is the purpose of the filter? Are you trying to take all the dissolved solids out of your water? Your fish need a measure of dissolved solids in the water for good health. Mollies prefer harder, more alkaline water (above 7pH), completely removing the solids will cause health issues in your fish. Also, are you trying to remove chlorine with your filter? Your better bet would be to use water straight out of the tap, and add a water conditioner to remove chlorine or chloramines (such as Stress Coat or Prime...Prime is especially good if you are treating for chloramine). These conditioners work immediately, so there is no need to let the water age.

BTW, the development of fungus can be a symptom of water quality issues too. Mollies can be especially prone to fungal infections (saddleback), and I saw this happen with my own mollies when I put them through cycling the tank. Unfortunately, they didn't survive, and eventually became too weak to avoid getting stuck to the filter. I think that the nitrites were the culprit in the end.

 

[cranberry]

A couple of quick things... The salt is really not necessary. Is 6.5 your normal ph, or has it changed?

I actually don't know what the norm is. I just figured that I was having these problems because something was wrong with the water. Maybe I'm quoting ph number incorrectly. LFS tested the water and it turn a light shade of turquoise. Had a color guide that he compared it to and my color was about 4 or five color codes lighter than the ph 7 color. That's when he said, wow your pH is really low and fish can start to die if it gets any lower.

What is it in the aged water that you use?

Nothing, since I use the zero water filter. So I after I filter the water, I warm it to aquarium temp, then add the aquarium salt and stress coat.

Thats really not that low, and most of the fish will be able to adapt to that just fine. Adding ph up/down can cause the ph to fluctuate which can be more stressful on the fish.

I really must buy my own kit then, huh?

When you say change the filter,what do you mean by that (what exactly do you do?)

I use the Tetra Whiper filter. Once a month, I change the bags, including the carbon. I have two of them running.

If you remove everything at once you will create a mini cycle everytime you remove it all. The best way is to only change one thing every couple-few weeks, and if you have sponges at all, those can go for months without being replaced, they just need a good rinsing in TANK water.

Sponges? I guess I don't have those...

I would continue to do your gravel vacs every week with the water change, it basically just removes waste and uneaten food, which isn't good for anything, and if you're doing a water change anyway, its just as easy to do it with a gravel vac.

That was my thought. But then LFS says that so much vac'ing removes beneficial bacteria...

How long has the tank been set up?

That's a tricky question. The tank isn't actually mine. It's my mom's and step-father's. He rarely paid any attention to it and would sometimes forget to even feed the fish for days on end. He kind of had an attitude that he'd feed them if remembered to. And then they bought more fish, no quarantine & added the petshop water to aquarium - don't laugh!! We just didn't know any better . So surprise... ICH!! Ew! They survived ich and the resulting secondary infection (body fungus). Things were going smoothly until one of the previously sick fish (Marble Molly) fell ill with whatever the "fungus" is now. Then the Red Eyed Tetra fell too. Anyway ... I think the tank is at least 6 months old, but probably older.

And how long have you had these fish?

Came w/ the Tank
2 Unknown Species
1 Red Eyed Tetra
1 Black Neon Tetra

Since Fed 05
1 Gold Molly (male)
1 Male Fancy Guppy (orange)
1 Fancy Guppy (multi colored)
1 Pleco (Yes, I know they BIG. Pet Shop didn't disclose that at purchasing time. There were actually 2 plecos. One died, I'm pretty sure from starvation. But the surviving Pleco is doing ok now that I know he needs supplements in his diet!! I am so very attached to him. He comes straight to me and eats from my hand. Just recently, he comes to the top of the water or swims up my arm at feeding time. Sweet fish! I am currently looking on area freecycle for bigger tank for him. I've priced 55 gal in my area pet shop. While I don't think they are *that* expensive considering the package deals offered, I still don't have the money to buy one. What I do know is that once I can get one, ONLY the pleco will be moving there since he's been the healthiest and easiest of the bunch to care for!)
Since Apr 05
1 Gold Molly (female)
1 Marble Molly
1 Yucatan Molly? (He looks like this)

Size of the tank?

20 Gal

Also do you know what your amonia and nitriite are? Have the LFS give you actual numbers and not just "good or bad".

He didn't give any numbers, just "good".

Your own test kits are even better.

Definately!!!!

Also, what exactly does the "infection" look like?

Red Eyed Tetra has was stuff on his gills and eyes. It's neither stringy looking, nor cotton looking. They are just white dots on his eyes. And the white stuff on his gills are flat and extends from his gills. It's very hard to describe. Also, a few of his scales protude. Marble molly also has white stuff neither stringy, nor cottony. It's limited to the fins. It's mostly cleared up since the Quick Cure, but she still has a glob on her tail and on the fins on her abdomen.
Pleco doesn't have any white stuff, but he does change colors a lot. He is normall dark brown w/ leopard like spots. But lately he's been changing to a lighter brown. The leopard spots are still there, but light brown gives him a striped appearance too ... striped width-wise, not lenght-wise.

And if you can, slow down the flow on the filter, if the fish is weak, it will help prevent him from getting sucked onto the intake, most filters can be adjusted, sometimes it is on the top of the filter or even on the part that hangs in the water

Yes - it's adjustable. I thought that turning down the flow would lessen the oxygen. ???

 

[cranberry]

I don't think the issue is swim bladder, I think it's probably water quality. I took a look at the link for the Zero Water Filter, and wonder if that may be causing issues for you. What is the purpose of the filter? Are you trying to take all the dissolved solids out of your water? Your fish need a measure of dissolved solids in the water for good health. Mollies prefer harder, more alkaline water (above 7pH), completely removing the solids will cause health issues in your fish. Also, are you trying to remove chlorine with your filter? Your better bet would be to use water straight out of the tap, and add a water conditioner to remove chlorine or chloramines (such as Stress Coat or Prime...Prime is especially good if you are treating for chloramine). These conditioners work immediately, so there is no need to let the water age.

BTW, the development of fungus can be a symptom of water quality issues too. Mollies can be especially prone to fungal infections (saddleback), and I saw this happen with my own mollies when I put them through cycling the tank. Unfortunately, they didn't survive, and eventually became too weak to avoid getting stuck to the filter. I think that the nitrites were the culprit in the end.

I used the filter to remove the chlorine. It didn't occur to me that the fish would need all the other junk that the filter removed. I thought it would be healthier for them. So I should just use tap and stress coat? I thought that wouldn't be enough. Shows how much I know ... *blush*

 

[pbecot01]

The most likely cause of having low PH in your tank is the filtered water. If it really reduces it to 0 PPM dissolved solids, you have 0 PH buffer which will make your PH drop.

Just having a low PH isn't going to cause those symptoms in your fish, though having your PH CHANGE can.

In addition, I would do more then 15% a week... That's really not a lot of water, and one big change does more then lots of little changes anyway. 50% a week is pretty common around here.

I had a problem with the first batch of fish I got from the petstore coming down with swim bladder problems ... each fish that showed symptoms died From looking around, once the bladder deteriorates it's pretty much over. Good luck :/

 

[cranberry]

The most likely cause of having low PH in your tank is the filtered water. If it really reduces it to 0 PPM dissolved solids, you have 0 PH buffer which will make your PH drop.

Yep - it really does do what it says. The unit comes with a testing device. I've been using that filter for a few months now, so the ppm reading isn't zero anymore; it's more like 20'ish now.

In addition, I would do more then 15% a week... That's really not a lot of water, and one big change does more then lots of little changes anyway. 50% a week is pretty common around here.

Wow!! I always thought that 50% was too much of a change for them.

I had a problem with the first batch of fish I got from the petstore coming down with swim bladder problems ... each fish that showed symptoms died From looking around, once the bladder deteriorates it's pretty much over. Good luck :/

I don't have a good feeling about Mr. Molly's plight.

 

[mishi8]

I used the filter to remove the chlorine. It didn't occur to me that the fish would need all the other junk that the filter removed. I thought it would be healthier for them. So I should just use tap and stress coat? I thought that wouldn't be enough. Shows how much I know ... *blush*

Yes, just use tap water and stress coat. You can adjust the temperature of your water at the tap (use a thermometer to check). And as pbetco01 mentioned, removing the solids will reduce your tank's KH, which will, in turn, lower your pH. Start with doing partial water changes everyday to gradually bring your KH and pH back up...and don't bother with pH Up products, they don't produce stable results.

 

[Holly9937]

Do you have 2 filters running, or 2 bags on the filter? Either way, only change one bag at a time, then the next week (or two) later change the other, that way you give the new bag time to build up bacteria before replacing the older one. '

Test kits for ph, amonia, and nitrite are pretty essential, that way you can keep track of whats going on, and you don't have to go to the LFS each time you think you have a problem. Usually you can find master test kits that are a pretty good price and have most of what you need.

In terms of vacuuming, doing it once a week will not eliminate all your bacteria. Most of it is built up in your filter more than anywhere else. Gravel vacs. will just get rid of all the fish waste and uneaten food that settles in the bottom.

Its nice that you're trying to take care of the tank, sounds like you're giving them better care than they were getting from the rest of your family!! You can find alot of good info on here, doing searches and just looking around. Even if you lose the fish that are in the tank now, I think you'll be more successful next time.

In terms of acclimating the fish to the tank, what I do is let the bag float in the tank for 20 minutes or so. Then I dump the fish and water into a large pitcher and over the next hour or two I'll add a bit of tank water to the pitcher every 15 minutes or so. Then I net the fish and put them into the tank. I've never had any problems and it gives the fish some time to adjust to your water conditions.

 

[cranberry]

Do you have 2 filters running, or 2 bags on the filter? Either way, only change one bag at a time, then the next week (or two) later change the other, that way you give the new bag time to build up bacteria before replacing the older one.

I have two whisper units running w/ one filter bag per unit. I'm nervous to go home now and see what's left of Mr. Molly. :sad: