How long -- approximately -- does it tank for crushed coral to raise the pH? And how do I know when it's at the "max" that it can raise it?
Roan
Roan
pH, pH, pH pHooey! :)
- Thread starter Roan Art
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How long seems to be directly proportional to what your starting Ph is. With crushed coral my observation has been that it will not go above about 7.8.
So if you have a Ph of 6 to start you will see fairly rapid start, and an increase that slows as it goes until it gets to roughly 7.8 and then you will see no change. If you start with 7.4 you will see a much slower reaction until it gets to 7.8 and then no change from there.
These are merely my observations from trying to up Kh in my change water barrells, and adding crushed coral to multiple tanks. the Crushed coral will not dissolve until I inject co2 and lower the Ph below 7.8. Other folks may have more scientific input.
Dave
Boogers.daveedka said:
I'm already at 7.4-7.8, but my KH is 3. Trying to raise the KH so I can inject more safely.
Maybe I phrased my question incorrectly. Will the KH raise even if the pH is maxed?
OH.
Well, I'm glad I asked then else I would have been sitting here forever waiting for something to happen
Roan
Raising kH with coral is effective.......but slow, verrrrrrrryyyyyy slooooooowwww.
It does take, IME 10 days to 2 weeks to see change and then a gradual increase in kH will take place. You have to be patient Roan!!
I would say the it's safe to inject at 3°H but keep an eye on your pH and adjust for no more than 20ppm until at least 3.5°H is reached. That's just my opinion. Tom Barr would read this and say something like......don't coddle 'wimpy' fish, but I think it's better to be safe than risky when it comes to the fish.
Don't try to adjust pH with the use of coral. Adjust pH through injection, going down to the level that gives you the desired (safe, at this time) CO2 ppm through the kH/pH relationship.
Len
.It does take, IME 10 days to 2 weeks to see change and then a gradual increase in kH will take place. You have to be patient Roan!!
I would say the it's safe to inject at 3°H but keep an eye on your pH and adjust for no more than 20ppm until at least 3.5°H is reached. That's just my opinion. Tom Barr would read this and say something like......don't coddle 'wimpy' fish
, but I think it's better to be safe than risky when it comes to the fish.Don't try to adjust pH with the use of coral. Adjust pH through injection, going down to the level that gives you the desired (safe, at this time) CO2 ppm through the kH/pH relationship.
Len
djlen said:Raising kH with coral is effective.......but slow, verrrrrrrryyyyyy slooooooowwww
It does take, IME 10 days to 2 weeks to see change and then a gradual increase in kH will take place. You have to be patient Roan!!
Sir, yes, SIR!
Bah, it's only been 3 days. Feels like forever ROFL! Okay, I'll mix up the voodoo and go ahead. It'll take at least a day for it to get to full steam anyhow.I would say the it's safe to inject at 3°H but keep an eye on your pH and adjust for no more than 20ppm until at least 3.5°H is reached. That's just my opinion. Tom Barr would read this and say something like......don't coddle 'wimpy' fish
I'm with you on the safe than risky thingy.
RIGHT! I didn't phrase the question correctly, my fault
Always reading about coral raising pH and that got stuck in my head.Thanks again, Len
Roan
Len is correct IME. Crushed coral is not very soluble, aragonite dissolves more easily. PLUS (big plus), when your pH starts dropping from CO2 supplement, guess what? You have just boosted the solubility of the coral - that is a pH function, not a KH function. You can be in the paradoxical situation of the pH stable and the KH and CO2 concentrations both rising slowly. If you have not thought it out, that can stop you in tracks.
Once the tank is better stabilized, the relationships only change right after partials before the KH rebounds. If you want to avoid that, you need to age the water with coral over UG or a "reactor" type flow-through cylinder charged with coral. That of course means another tank and time. PITA, but it works.
Once the tank is better stabilized, the relationships only change right after partials before the KH rebounds. If you want to avoid that, you need to age the water with coral over UG or a "reactor" type flow-through cylinder charged with coral. That of course means another tank and time. PITA, but it works.
Roan,
Here the part that will make you happpappity
When you start injecting, you lower Ph. If You have crushed coral in the sytem, then the lower you take the ph the faster it dissolves. So if there is coral in the sytem, and assuming you don't go hog wild right off the bat, your caral will dissolve at a rate that will prevent a crash. Over time you Kh will raise as the coral will keep trying to put your water back at 7.6-7.8 and the co2 will keep trying to drive it down. Your biggest worry will be testing and observing until you find a nice balance between amounts of crushed coral, and co2 injection. Once you find that balanc, then mark your numbers and watch you plants blow bubbles all day. Remember to rinse your crushed coral occasionally, as it seems to "glaze" up and quit working if you don't.
If it's any consolation, My tap water is close to identical to your in Kh and Ph, My tanks are pushing about 6 dKh now, and my co2 levels stay between 25-40 ppm depnding on time of day (Mine runs 24 hours, no solenoid to shut off at night)
I'm not suggesting you run the numbers I'm running (I have additional motives) but the safety factor that crushed coral creats is not a trivial thing. View the coral as unreleased Buffer just waiting for a drop in Ph. And Just a note, aragonite seems to work much much faster and drive numbers a bit higher than crushed coral. not sure of the whole dynamic (still testing theories), but it worked fast enough to catch me by suprise and overhardern my tank water.
Dave
Here the part that will make you happpappity
When you start injecting, you lower Ph. If You have crushed coral in the sytem, then the lower you take the ph the faster it dissolves. So if there is coral in the sytem, and assuming you don't go hog wild right off the bat, your caral will dissolve at a rate that will prevent a crash. Over time you Kh will raise as the coral will keep trying to put your water back at 7.6-7.8 and the co2 will keep trying to drive it down. Your biggest worry will be testing and observing until you find a nice balance between amounts of crushed coral, and co2 injection. Once you find that balanc, then mark your numbers and watch you plants blow bubbles all day. Remember to rinse your crushed coral occasionally, as it seems to "glaze" up and quit working if you don't.
If it's any consolation, My tap water is close to identical to your in Kh and Ph, My tanks are pushing about 6 dKh now, and my co2 levels stay between 25-40 ppm depnding on time of day (Mine runs 24 hours, no solenoid to shut off at night)
I'm not suggesting you run the numbers I'm running (I have additional motives) but the safety factor that crushed coral creats is not a trivial thing. View the coral as unreleased Buffer just waiting for a drop in Ph. And Just a note, aragonite seems to work much much faster and drive numbers a bit higher than crushed coral. not sure of the whole dynamic (still testing theories), but it worked fast enough to catch me by suprise and overhardern my tank water.
Dave
daveedka said:Roan,
Here the part that will make you happpappity
When you start injecting, you lower Ph. If You have crushed coral in the sytem, then the lower you take the ph the faster it dissolves. So if there is coral in the sytem, and assuming you don't go hog wild right off the bat, your caral will dissolve at a rate that will prevent a crash. Over time you Kh will raise as the coral will keep trying to put your water back at 7.6-7.8 and the co2 will keep trying to drive it down. Your biggest worry will be testing and observing until you find a nice balance between amounts of crushed coral, and co2 injection. Once you find that balanc, then mark your numbers and watch you plants blow bubbles all day. Remember to rinse your crushed coral occasionally, as it seems to "glaze" up and quit working if you don't.
If it's any consolation, My tap water is close to identical to your in Kh and Ph, My tanks are pushing about 6 dKh now, and my co2 levels stay between 25-40 ppm depnding on time of day (Mine runs 24 hours, no solenoid to shut off at night)
I'm not suggesting you run the numbers I'm running (I have additional motives) but the safety factor that crushed coral creats is not a trivial thing. View the coral as unreleased Buffer just waiting for a drop in Ph. And Just a note, aragonite seems to work much much faster and drive numbers a bit higher than crushed coral. not sure of the whole dynamic (still testing theories), but it worked fast enough to catch me by suprise and overhardern my tank water.
Dave
This is why you cannot use a ph controler in a tank with crushed coral in it. The Co2 lowers the ph and as Dave said the coral will dissolve faster and therefore raising the KH, and when the kh is raised, the ph controler injects more and more Co2 into the tank, so the kh keeps rising but the ph stays the same, which results in huge amounts of Co2 dessolved in the water. A vicious cycle if you like. Anyway as Dave said you have to be very careful.
What about those in-tank CO2 monitors? Do they work? I'd really like to be able to eyeball what's going on in there. I'm just not confident that I won't commit some kind of horrible faux pas and kill all my fish.
It's in my genes, I think
Roan
It's in my genes, I think
Roan
You can still measure CO2 as a function of pH and KH, it's just that as KH rises from the crushed coral, the pH for a CO2 concentration of 'X' increases.
Increasing CO2 levels also increases the dissolution rate of CaCO3 by reacting directly with CO3-- to form HCO3- (bicarbonate). In general, CaCO3 should result in a pH in the mid 8's (like the ocean), but crushed coral does not dissolve very quickly, so there's a kinetic effect happening that makes it very difficult to get pH above the high 7's. IMO, it makes crushed coral a great option for low buffer tanks injecting CO2 since it dissolves slowly, but will do so more quickly as CO2 levels increase. Aragonite is a better option for those who simply with to raise KH/pH, like rift lake keepers.
Increasing CO2 levels also increases the dissolution rate of CaCO3 by reacting directly with CO3-- to form HCO3- (bicarbonate). In general, CaCO3 should result in a pH in the mid 8's (like the ocean), but crushed coral does not dissolve very quickly, so there's a kinetic effect happening that makes it very difficult to get pH above the high 7's. IMO, it makes crushed coral a great option for low buffer tanks injecting CO2 since it dissolves slowly, but will do so more quickly as CO2 levels increase. Aragonite is a better option for those who simply with to raise KH/pH, like rift lake keepers.