PH too High in New Tank (cross-posted)

Misopeenut,

Just a question: where on earth do you get this information from?

:rolleyes:

Hypatia,

Water softeners work by substituting salt ions with Ca and Mg. Plants and fish need Ca and Mg in their water in order to stay healthy. Your softened water isn't "okay" for the fish at all. They are literally swimming in salts.

Roan
 
Everyone is getting very close to the answer without taking that last step.

Fish don't read pH, they read osmolarity. Osmolarity is a function of Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) - essentially a measure of the amount of ions in the water: this could be Ca, Mg, Na, K, Cl, SO4, PO4, NO3...

When fish are classified as "hard water fish" it means neither KH nor GH directly but high TDS. Normally this isn't an issue, but the confusion comes in the translation from natural systems to aquaria. In natural systems the pH is mostly controlled - set, if you will - by carbonate species (HCO3 and CO3). Carbonate species are mostly derived from MgCO3 and CaCO3 (this is a gross simplification, as any geologist will point out, but those are the "main" contributors). Hence, high pH waters are typically high in HCO3 and CO3, and high in Ca and Mg. So to say that a fish from "hard" water means high GH isn't wrong in a natural system, but is sadly meaningless in an aquarium.

Municipalities often soften "hard" water so that it suds up better - nicer on laundry and showers. Water softening means removing Ca and Mg, but because ionic charge must remain constant each Ca or Mg which is removed is replaced by two Na (sodium) ions. In other words, as far as fish are concerned, softened water is twice as hard as "hard" water. This is where the confusion erupts between reading fish references and aquarium tests. In nature, pH is a function of carbonate (and others), but in your aquarium a myriad of chemicals may have been added to improve water quality. This isn't a bad thing, but it does make understanding what's happening a little trickier.

As for Otos, the trick is not to buy them fresh off the truck. Give them two weeks to settle. If they're still alive after 2 weeks in the store, chances are very good that sufficient symbionts survived transit to derive nutrition from algae. I've bought several otos from a local shop which QTs all new arrivals - Otos for 2 weeks minimum - and never lost one that wasn't my own fault: such as a curious oto getting his head caught in a poorly designed CO2 diffuser.
 
Roan,
I worried about this too, that the process of water softening involves an exchange with salts, but when I went searching on the internet I could not find any references to it other than a few people discussing getting a water softener for their aquarium water... I wonder now if they really meant an RO system. So, I suppose too quickly, I assumed that I was just ignorant of the whole chemical picture of water softening or that the sodium ions that are exchanged are not in the form of NaCl and therefore not a problem, or something. I guess it's time to reconsider the problem...
So are you saying that I essentially have my fish in brackish water right now? Since I do not want a live bearer tank (BTW to those who were discussing this.. guppies, do best in water that is over 7.5 and hard, if there is some salt all the better.) Is a 100% water change with RO the solution? I can get it at my local grocery for $.40 a gallon so it's not a big deal to do that... just four trips with my 10 refill jugs, right around the corner form my house. The water, unsoftened out of the tap (i.e. from the well), has a PH that is well above 8 and off the scale hard. (Again, before I was trying to keep it lower for the ottos my 5.5 guppies loved it that way... never got sick, bred like crazy.. I am planning to trade the new 1/2 black blue babies for credits at my LFS I can use for fish in the 37 Tetra tank.)

HappyChem,
Thank you very much. I know, as you said, that your explanation is a simplified version of the detail, but it is much more complex an explanation than I have found thus far of what is going on with Hardness, KH, GH, PH etc. Even if I am ultimately to decide not to worry about my PH much, I am at heart still an academic. I want to know as much as I can anyway, and I believe that all problems have a logical answer... as opposed to "Well, Ottos just don't do well, don't know why, but pay no attention to the high PH behind the curtain".


To everyone in the Otto part of the discussion,
I think the deal with Ottos is a combination of stress (not being fed well, etc) during shipment, as HappyChem mentioned, and that they don't take acclimating to a new set of parameters well (maybe because they are so bad off from shipment?). I went through several pairs in the 5.5 with the normal float the bag, add little bit of water, thing. Then finally I talked to my family-owned-FS and got extra water in the bag. I set up a slow drip, through air type tubing crimped with those lead weights they use at Corperate-FSs for plants, to a small bucket of the water they came in. They both lived through the process and are now very hardy fish, who are invaluable in my high-light, little, planted 5.5. They are fun to watch, loosely school together, will guard a strawberry or zucchini with their lives :D , and they keep both the tank and the plants algae free without harming them or disturbing the landscaping (i.e. digging). I think they are well worth the effort
 
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happychem said:
Everyone is getting very close to the answer without taking that last step.

Fish don't read pH, they read osmolarity. Osmolarity is a function of Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) - essentially a measure of the amount of ions in the water: this could be Ca, Mg, Na, K, Cl, SO4, PO4, NO3...
Click to expand...

Osmolarity. Now that's a great word. I must pull that out the next time I'm trying to impress someone.
 
I can't "talk the talk" near as well as happychem, or daveedka or RTR, so I try to explain stuff as well as I can with what I've learned from those guys.

Hypatia said:
Roan,
I worried about this too, that the process of water softening involves an exchange with salts, but when I went searching on the internet I could not find any references to it other than a few people discussing getting a water softener for their aquarium water... I wonder now if they really meant an RO system.
Click to expand...
They probably were.

So, I suppose too quickly, I assumed that I was just ignorant of the whole chemical picture of water softening or that the sodium ions that are exchanged are not in the form of NaCl and therefore not a problem, or something. I guess it's time to reconsider the problem...
Click to expand...
Not sure I follow this -- but going to try to read between the lines: It doesn't really matter, IMO, which form of sodium is replacing the Ca and Mg. The water is being stripped of necessary minerals -- calcium and magnesium -- and being replaced with unnecessary salt.

Let me put it this way . . . the water softener is taking out that which makes the water "hard" -- magnesium and calcium -- and replacing those minerals with salt, which makes the water "thick". Fish can life with hard, fish cannot live with thick. The salt makes the water softer (in human terms) but thicker, denser, for the fish. In the long run it will affect their ability to osmoregulate -- adapt their body to changing conditions.

Osmoregulation is the ability to adapt to changes in pH, temperature, salinity, TDS and probably a myriad of other things. Their bodies have to change in order to survive in different environmental situations. When you place a freshwater fish in a salty or "thick" environment (the same result will happen in a tank that does not receive enough water changes) their bodies lose the ability to osmoregulate itself. To change. If there is a sudden change in something -- a power outage causes the temperature to drop 10* for instance -- their bodies cannot adapt. They will go into osmotic shock and most likely die.

I hope the above makes some sort of sense. If I have anything wrong, RTR/happychem/daveedka will correct me. I'm used to it :D

So are you saying that I essentially have my fish in brackish water right now?
Click to expand...
No, definitely not. The addition of salt does not make brackish water at all and is one of the confusions in the hobby. Brackish water contains marine salts, of which NaCl is just a part of.

Your fish are currently in very "thick" water, as I described above, that is devoid of some minerals that are very important to their health and longevity.

Since I do not want a live bearer tank (BTW to those who were discussing this.. guppies, do best in water that is over 7.5 and hard, if there is some salt all the better.)
Click to expand...
You're confusing hard water/salt/TDS. No freshwater fish does better with salt in the tank. In the long run the use of salt will shorten their lifespans. See osmoregulation, above.

Guppies need water high in TDS, which does not mean just the addition of salt. Check this board for "Rift Lake cichlids water" and see what you come up with.

Personally, I would either just bypass the water softener and use the tap water, or get an RO unit and add Kent's R/O to the resulting water.

Roan
 
chinnp said:
Osmolarity. Now that's a great word. I must pull that out the next time I'm trying to impress someone.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I get whether you are being flippant, sarcastic, just making a joke, or assuming that happychem is throwing words around to impress people.

Regardless, he's not. Osmolarity is VERY important to all fish: freshwater and marine.

Roan
 
Osmoregulation. Roan's not wrong, she has the jist of it, but I'm always worried about the "broken telephone effect". That is, one person sais something that's mostly right, another repeats it with a little change, and so on.

Osmoregulation is a metabolic function which the fish do to balance the amount of water in their bodies with respect to the amount of water around them. Osmolarity, for me, is best viewed as the concentration of water. Which is kind of a funny way at looking at things because water is the solvent. Nonetheless, the more minerals dissolved in the water (which don't passively diffuse through the barrier in question, fishy blood vessels in this case), the less water per unit volume. In general, freshwater fish constantly expel water from their bodies to osmoregulate and saltwater fish are constantly taking in more. There is a metabolic cost to this, of course, so naturally the closer we can match the fish's natural environment, the better. As with all things, though, there is a balance between theory and practicality. Most fish will do just fine in most tap water conditions.

Hypatia, if you're interested, there is more detail in the Water Chemistry article in the "Articles" forum. It does need to be read with an eye on context though, I tried to stay very literal in my writing of it to keep it as compact as possible.
 
Roan Art said:
I can't "talk the talk" near as well as happychem, or daveedka or RTR, so I try to explain stuff as well as I can with what I've learned from those guys. ...<snip>... I hope the above makes some sort of sense. If I have anything wrong, RTR/happychem/daveedka will correct me. I'm used to it :D
Click to expand...

Yes, it all made sense. And for the getting corrected all the time part.. well... I'd say that this is a VERY important life skill... you know? So many people can't get comfortable enough with being wrong to ever be open to all the knowledge that is readily available these days, and consequently they never get to the being right part! :Angel:

You're confusing hard water/salt/TDS. No freshwater fish does better with salt in the tank. In the long run the use of salt will shorten their lifespans. See osmoregulation, above.

Guppies need water high in TDS, which does not mean just the addition of salt. Check this board for "Rift Lake cichlids water" and see what you come up with.
Click to expand...

I wasn't confusing the two. They were two separate points. Guppies like hard (or should I have said TDS? BTW what is TDS?) water AND just about all the guppy sites, and guppy breeders, ect, recommend adding salt to guppy tanks (up to one teaspoon per five gallons).

I don't add salt (unless I am treating the tank for some illness) because I want to have other fish in the tank... and I have read that Ottos especially do not tolerate salt well.

Thank you for all the info.. I am off to RO land. I realized after I posted the above, that I had actually used RO mixed with the outside/unsoftened water in the Guppy tank up to the last water change. So luckily, the 5.5 is okay. I only tested the inside water in prep for having a bigger tank, thinking that I would not want to deal with hauling that much water from the store. I will do the mixing thing for the 37 now too, but with a higher ratio of RO to outside/unsoftened. After this first time it shouldn't be too bad though. For once a month 25% changes, taking my 10 or so jugs to the corner store and back is not such a big deal.

Thanks Everyone
,
 
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