Planted Tanks top substrates??

[MoonstruckMuse]

It's funny that you say that plain looks more natural - if you go to many rivers or lakes that are heavily vegetated (aka, have lots of plants), you'll find most in a dark, muddy substrate. Sand is closely related to glass - it's just silica. It has NO nutrients for plants, by itself. Over time it can accumulate bacteria that'll help make the fish waste more accessible to plants, but ultimately, any substrate can do that.

The pet store guy may have been trying to push Eco-complete on you. Does that sound familiar? It would have been a blackish substrate with varying sizes, from small sand sized particles to small gravel pieces. It also has water already in it, with various microorganisms, namely bacteria, already seeded. Though this stuff is nutrient rich and seeded with bacteria, you'll find that ANY substrate that's kept well will eventually develop those same bacteria... just a waiting game.
The nutrient richness from eco-complete or flourite is high indeed, but many other people succeed with just root tabs... or by getting mineralized soil. I think most hardcore plant people would argue that mineralized soil is the best - it's incredibly nutrient rich and will last forever, really. My ecocomplete is now mostly devoid of nutrients after 7+ years, but others have used MS for twenty with no problems.
That being said, MS and other soils are all going to be darker colored, which is indicative of more organic matter. You can put sand on top and be just fine with that, if you like the color of the sand more.

 

[Dieprophezeiung]

I'm thinking about using soil in my soon to be 10g planted tank but have a few questions.

1) is it safe for fish? I have a few babie bristlenosed cats and a female betta.
2) can you get the soil without the little pieces of styrofoam in it?
3) if I wanted to put a layer of sand or gravel over it, would that hinder the soils ability to decompose some of the fish waste? And
4) how would I vac the soil if I didn't have some type of substrate over it?

Thanks for the help!

 

[aquariumdude]

This may go against every poorly researched aquarium book that you've read but get organic potting soil. Plain washed gravel is going to be the worst thing for your plants also. I think sand would be okay if it had some mulm or fertilzer in it but wouldn't be ideal by itself.

If you want a low tech tank then buy a bag of Miracle Grow Organic choice potting soil and fill it at about a 1 inch depth and top it with fine gravel or sand. It has all the nutrients you'd ever need and decomposition will provide carbon dioxide. I think that is the best choice as you don't have to air out the soil just put it straight in.

A good book that has this and a lot more scientific info is Diana Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. You'll feel like a fool, well I did when I spent 40 plus bucks on ecocomplete (two bags) when you could pay 4 bucks for the soil and get excellent soil for plants. I'll probably dismantle my 29 gallon hi-tech for this, I already have plants in a soil mix and they are now doing great in the bowl.

I had a suspicion the plants I got from liveaquaria were grown emersed or at least the cuttings I got were and therefore would do poorly in almost two feet of water when the leaves were clearly of an emergent plant =(.

wow that is weird. now doesnt that dirty your tank up if the water moves around?

Lets say i do that...let is sit for a few days then go buy a few good hearty plants....isnt that complicating to place the plants once this is already done (soil/then ecocomplete).

Ecocomplete is what I saw at the store and I thought that would work probably the best considering that is has organisms that break down the poo and turn it into fertilizer therefor you don't need soil and etc. But the down fall is it's $26 bag at Uncle Bills (Which we hate bc they buy from dog mills)...I don't see at petco so I figured petsmart wouldnt carry it. Only other option is there is a nice aquarium store an hour north of me...

 

[aquariumdude]

It's funny that you say that plain looks more natural - if you go to many rivers or lakes that are heavily vegetated (aka, have lots of plants), you'll find most in a dark, muddy substrate. Sand is closely related to glass - it's just silica. It has NO nutrients for plants, by itself. Over time it can accumulate bacteria that'll help make the fish waste more accessible to plants, but ultimately, any substrate can do that.

The pet store guy may have been trying to push Eco-complete on you. Does that sound familiar? It would have been a blackish substrate with varying sizes, from small sand sized particles to small gravel pieces. It also has water already in it, with various microorganisms, namely bacteria, already seeded. Though this stuff is nutrient rich and seeded with bacteria, you'll find that ANY substrate that's kept well will eventually develop those same bacteria... just a waiting game.
The nutrient richness from eco-complete or flourite is high indeed, but many other people succeed with just root tabs... or by getting mineralized soil. I think most hardcore plant people would argue that mineralized soil is the best - it's incredibly nutrient rich and will last forever, really. My ecocomplete is now mostly devoid of nutrients after 7+ years, but others have used MS for twenty with no problems.
That being said, MS and other soils are all going to be darker colored, which is indicative of more organic matter. You can put sand on top and be just fine with that, if you like the color of the sand more.

Yes it was ecocomplete...he said i'd never have the feed the plants with this nor clean the poo as much because it's breaking it down.

I have white silica sand now and the plants didn't take off very quickly. Just bought a few wild onions and random plants (little packets of bulbs) They grew but the roots never really took off and would float to the top eventually if the fish went through them alot. What I hate the most is the poo stands out..

 

[arachnar]

wow that is weird. now doesnt that dirty your tank up if the water moves around?

Lets say i do that...let is sit for a few days then go buy a few good hearty plants....isnt that complicating to place the plants once this is already done (soil/then ecocomplete).

Ecocomplete is what I saw at the store and I thought that would work probably the best considering that is has organisms that break down the poo and turn it into fertilizer therefor you don't need soil and etc. But the down fall is it's $26 bag at Uncle Bills (Which we hate bc they buy from dog mills)...I don't see at petco so I figured petsmart wouldnt carry it. Only other option is there is a nice aquarium store an hour north of me...

It depends on the soil and the brand. I would go organic because artificially fertilized soil with release excessive nitrates, etc into the water. It shouldn't cloud the water actually as you cover the soil with a layer of fine gravel or sand to keep it down, Some pieces will float up but my water in my bowl is clear I an turbidity if that's what you mean. Plus garden soil that is unsterilized comes with all essential cycling bacteria in place.

I got two bags of eco complete off Drs. Foster and Smith for 23 or 21 dollars I believe plus shipping and alot of other supplies which meant 9 bucks flat rate for shipping was negligible.

Looking back I would probably switch the ecocomplete for the soil I bought.

 

[arachnar]

Mineralized top soil capped with your choice of gravel, pool filter sand etc gets my vote!

This seems to be a great alternative as well, I was just reading up on it on aquatic plant central. Finding the actual topsoil might be tough though, I think I'd try out walstad's method first. Plus Aaron mentions high light and CO2, because the soil and clay mixture is inorganic, no carbon dioxide would be produced from the initial soil like a Walstad setup.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

Since it's winter here, I would wait till at least spring or summer to try this as the soil would never dry properly considering how wet and cold it can get here.

Good luck with whatever you eventually decide to do.

 

[kog]

yea I was thinking of this too...I have half a bag of this http://www.daltons.co.nz/home-gardening/retail-products/specialty-potting-mixes/aquatic-mix so Im thinking some of this + sand on the top. It should have everything the plants need without affecting fish, but what about poop at the top of the sand layer, will that be used up? I would hate to see poop on the sand all the time... :headshake2: maybe black sand on the top...