Please help-- in head over heels at this point

[MichiganMan]

All the jazz for cloudiness and ph up is junk and could possibly do more harm than good. Water changes are your best friend now, keep testing the water your goal is to maintain your ammonia as close to 0 as possible. Worry about ammonia, nitrItes and nitrAtes right now and forget ph, alk and all that other stuff for the moment. Good luck and remember water change, water change, water change

What he said...

If you can get some sand/gravel/etc from an established tank, you can hang it in your tank - there are "media bags" available at Petsmart, etc. This will let it sit in your water without mixing in with your substrate. While the conventional wisdom is that most of the beneficial bacteria live in the filter media, there will be some on any hard surface within an established tank. If you can get a sponge or similar from an established tank you'll be that much better off.

The logic behind water changes is this: picture the fishes' native environment. Typically a stream, pond, lake, etc. Lots more water per fish, and definitely more water movement. In the home aquarium, we use filters to help trap dirt and water changes to simulate current and a "larger" environment for the fish. In your case, you have a toxin in the water, ammonia, that can't go anywhere because this is a closed system. Eventually, the biological filter (Mr. Beneficial Bacteria #1) will break down that ammonia, converting it to (unfortunately) another toxin, nitrite. Then we'll need Beneficial Bacteria #2 to turn the toxic nitrite into the relatively benign nitrate, until he shows up in quantity you still have a closed system that is recirculating a toxic substance.

So, in lieu of an established biofilter, you need to change the water, change the water, change the water. The stress on the fish from a water change is going to be much less than the guaranteed-to-kill them effect of a build up of ammonia and/or nitrite. Little to no bacteria lives in the water column itself, so you're not going to slow the cycle by doing water changes, and you might be able to save your fish.

To paraphrase the famed philosopher Ty Webb: "Be the [river current], Danny."

Once you get past this crisis, we can talk about the benefits of adding stock *slowly*

 

[rtbob]

Amquel+ is similar to prime in that it will detoxify ammonia. What Prime and Amquel both do is convert Ammonia into non toxic Ammonium. However most test kits (API included) will still show ammonia as the kits can't tell the difference.

Read the label on the amquel and follow the directions.

+1 on ditching the PH up and the clear water chemicals.

+1 on water changes

 

[Khemul]

No need to rush out and buy Prime. You may want to switch to it eventually, but it isn't really any better then the other products. The reason so many people love it is that, compared to the other products, it is more concentrated then the other products so you use less (and thus it is technically cheaper) for the same effect.

Water changes will definitely be a good idea, since 8 is just the highest the kit will measure. It could be even higher, meaning that a single 50% water changes may not create a change right away in the tests. Multiple changes should drop the levels quickly though.


Do keep in mind, while Amquel+ and Prime detoxify ammonia, it is only a temporary arrangement. Eventually (think it is about 24 hours, but could be longer) the detoxifying effect wares off.

 

[rufioman]

1) Super water changes on a regular basis.
2) Starter plants to help with nits and ammonia.
3) Established media, substrate, whatever you can get your hands on.

I hope you get it worked out!

:cheers:

 

[kai_blake]

Thanks all. I retested in better light ( darn rainy days I am using the API freshwater master test kit for reference.

Ammonia is not so bad as it seems. About 4.0 ppm. I am about to start a 50 percent change, as my molly is still giving birth to dead babies and I have just now gotten that cleaned out. Is this normal for pot bellies and if so how long can this last? Do I need to separate her out?

My boyfriend was planning on switching out some of his gravel with darker stone. If I am understanding the previous posters I could get a media bag and use some of this gravel to try and jump start my bacterial colony? His tank has been established for 4 years now and currently houses two male dwarf guarani (sp?), A small school of neon tetra, a julian and emerald cory, some ghost shrimp and a 10 inch pleco.

Again, thanks!

 

[Fishlock Holmes]

4.0ppm is still bad. You might be worried about the pregnant molly, but the longer you wait on the water change, the more you're putting all your other fish at risk.

Yes, if you could get some dirty substrate from your boyfriend's tank, that would help. However, expect to still be doing some frequent water changes. Even with the beneficial bacteria from your boyfriend's substrate, your ammonia is probably too high for the BB to catch up quickly enough.

Also, once you get your ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels under control, I'd recommend retesting your pH using the high range test. Your current test shows it at the very top of the chart, but it could very well be even higher and the regular pH test simply can't go any higher. I would NOT be concerned about your pH right now, but in the future you'll want to know what your normal pH is.

 

[kai_blake]

@fishlock
No problem with the changes. I'm doing my 50% right now, It was reccomended to do a 10 - 25 % every 3-5 days from this point on until my set up stabilizes. Does that sound too aggressive? I did test the high ph which was just about 8.0, I only 4 tubes when i took the picture. Do I need to test before and after each water change? Sorry to ask so many questions!

I was also told to feed very very little 1 flake per fish every 3 days or so, will this help or hinder with the situation in my tank? they are due to be fed again tonight. And should I be adding salt to help with the stress?

 

[bitbot]

@fishlock
No problem with the changes. I'm doing my 50% right now, It was recommended to do a 10 - 25 % every 3-5 days from this point on until my set up stabilizes. Does that sound too aggressive? I did test the high pH which was just about 8.0, I only 4 tubes when i took the picture. Do I need to test before and after each water change? Sorry to ask so many questions!

I was also told to feed very very little 1 flake per fish every 3 days or so, will this help or hinder with the situation in my tank? they are due to be fed again tonight. And should I be adding salt to help with the stress?

Hi there,

if you read back over what people have written you will see that most wouldn't consider that "too aggressive" - quite the opposite.
4ppm is high, and dangerous to your fish, particularly with a high pH. I would be doing substantial changes every day with a reading of 4ppm.
If you are going to use substrate from another tank, best do it asap. You can tie up the gravel in a very well-rinsed piece of pantyhose, or any container that allows some water circulation - I would say get it in there, don't wait to buy a filter bag.

Some pet stores will mislead you and underplay the dangers and effort involved in keeping your fish healthy.

The idea behind minimal feeding is that less food in means less waste out the other end - makes sense. I'm not sure how big a flake is, but that sounds okay. They won't starve. And they always act hungry, even when they're ready to burst, so don't worry.

How often you test is up to you. You can ease up on water changes when your ammonia is zero. In the mean time, you already know you have a problem.

I (and many people on this forum) would say salt is a waste of time. It seems to be another of those things that pet shops try to sell people, but I've never seen any reliable evidence that it's good for freshwater fish.

 

[hope4peace]

@fishlock
It was reccomended to do a 10 - 25 % every 3-5 days from this point on until my set up stabilizes. Does that sound too aggressive?

From what Ive heard over the years, its pretty hard to be too aggressive with water changes. You should really do whatever you need to in order to get the ammonia down to a safe level. Even if that means back to back 50% water changes twice a day. The stress of the high ammonia levels is just about always going to be worse than the stress of a water change. The water change may cause temporary stress, but the ammonia can cause permanent damage. If you are slow with the adding of new water and it is the same temp, it shouldn't stress the fish out too much and as others have said, the ammount of bacteria that are in the water is so small that its not worth putting off water changes. Bottom line, for now don't worry about anything but keeping the ammonia at a safe level (pale yellow).

 

[kai_blake]

@bitbot
Changes everyday? So instead of doing a 30 percent every few days just to 10 or 15 each day? I wont be able to get the gravel until tommarrow ( we live an 1 + hours apart so I was figuring on treating with the AmQuel after I do my retest so I can stabilize my tank until I can get the gravel and string it in my tank in the am.

On an interesting note , not sure if this is due to the tank water being so off, but I caught one of my ghost shrimp molting. Quite bizarre, kinda like a scene out of Alien.

@hope4peace- Gotcha