Problems Breeding Cichlids

[jonathan03]

I have tried breeding cichlids several times with several types of fish. I have tried red devils, jaguars, jewels, and convicts. I have tried one pair of each, in 4 different tanks. All of the fish of the same species were grown together from a small size (an inch or so). Also, all the pairs I had layed eggs from 1-3 times, then one of the pair died unexpectedly.

After the eggs were laid, they quickly became infectected with a white fungus. A few of the eggs started to turn milky white, then all of them did soon after. Of the 15+ times my fish have laid eggs, 0 of them have hatched.

So my obvious question is, what could I possibly be doing wrong? I have tried several different types of fish in different tanks. All of my tanks use the penguin bio-wheel filter. I change the water weekly and do a 30% water change and gravel vacuum.

I was wondering if there is something that is in my tap water that would cause all of the eggs to get fungus? My tap ph is about 8.5 and there is a lot of calcium in the water.

I am thinking of trying to breed cichlids again, and I would appreciate any advice that would help me have a successful brood. Thanks for the help.

 

[mooman]

Did you leave the eggs with the adults? I have heard of people removing the eggs to a seperate tank and treating with methyl blue (fungicide). Other people have said the adults will weed out fungused eggs and to leave them with the parents. (I prefer the second option)

I have also heard that cichlids usually learn to be good parents (removing fungused eggs, guarding fry) only after several botched attempts.

I would like to hear from some more experienced breeders about post spawn deaths. My pair of A. cacatuoides spawned twice (second spawn had a few babies make it to free swimming stage before dissapearing) The next day the female was dead, male was hiding in cave and would not come out (turned up dead several days later)

Tank was a moderately planted 29g with plenty of caves and places to hide. Need some advice on how or if this can be avoided next time (Apistos are too expensive to keep replacing) By the way there was no previous aggresion apart from typical short chases

 

[Samala]

Some cichilds eggs are calcifugous.. meaning that they depend on having very little calcium in the water to retain the egg membrane's integrity. If the water is too hard, or just has too much calcium in it, this can cause the egg membrane to 'harden' and prevent fertilization from occurring. This is usually seen only in species preferring very acidic water (Discus, Apistos..) as most people have rather neutral water that suits most cichlids. However, with a pH of 8.5 and lots of calcium, its possible this is what is preventing your eggs from hatching with species that do not usually have very specific water chemistry needs. It has also been reported that, in Discus at least, calcium deposits can form in the sperm ducts of the fish, preventing proper fertilization from an internal perspective.

Yes, some breeders do remove eggs to prevent fungusing, but I suspect you never had fertilized eggs to begin with - thus the white color indicating they went 'bad'. If you truly want to keep SA and CA cichlids and breed them, consider finding a way to treat your water to bring down the pH and hardness levels.. this will side by side bring down your calcium levels. Or, get into African lake cichilds, which would probably enjoy your particularly high pH and hardness levels (check with someone who keeps lake cichilds first though please, I've never kept east African cichlids).

Mooman - Sometimes breeding is very stressful on fish and they will die if not given proper nutrition and such through the spawning period. This is why many breeders condition their pairs (lots of high quality live foods) to help them through the process of producing eggs and guarding them. A few of my pairs of Apistos would not eat until the fry were past the wriggler stage. In a weak fish that would be disastrous.

What were you feeding the cac's? And how was the water quality at the time? Cactuoides is far less demanding than other Apistos since its a whitewater species and will do ok and breed in neutral pH, low to medium hardness water. In fact my first colony had to be broken up repeatedly.. they bred like rabbits!

>Sarah

 

[mooman]

Water quality seemed ok. pH=7.2 (high for apistos but that's why I got the cacs) Hardness=125ppm (again a little high, but they did not seem to mind). No nitrogen issues (tested as soon as I saw female dead)

These fish were very healthy, very good eaters (female even would come out to eat for a few minutes when guarding eggs) They got frozen brine, and frozed bloodworms (never at the same time). and live bbs about once a week as a treat.

I had added a new cave (upside down flowerpot base) that female was favoring this time around. (previously spawned in very small caves in driftwood despite numerous shale caves around tank.) This was the first cave large enough for male to enter (even though I tried to make the entrance too small for him), but I've heard of entire flowerpots being used and favored by most hobbiests. Do you think the matracide could have been due to the new "cave"?

 

[jonathan03]

I did leave all the eggs with the parents. They were all very defensive of their eggs so I'm not sure how I could even tak them out without hurting them.

I did try bromothyl blue with my jaguars (the last fish I tried to spawn). It didn't seem to work though. Maybe I added it too late? It was a day or two after the eggs were laid.

From what I have read, your just supposed to leave the parents alone and let them do their thing. (At least for the fish I tried). So I really tried not to disturb them.

I know that there is a lot of calcium in my water because it always builds up on the tank. The water company says that there is 116 mg/L of CaCO3 in my tap water. This is in the hard water range according to "The Complete Aquarium" by Peter W. Scott. Is there a recommended CaCO3 level to have for fish to breed?

In addition, one of my tanks had large pecies of limestone in the tank to provide caves for the fish. I'm sure that this didn't help either.

What will bring down the calcium levels? Are there any plants that will help? I know its not a good idea to use plants with cichlids usually, but there are some swords and stronger plants that might do ok.

 

[Samala]

Mooman - I also use flowerpot bases instead of whole pots becasue I feel the pots are too large. I wonder if the base you used was glazed? I seem to remember some issue about glazed pottery leaching unwanted things into the water but I dont know if that was ever really substantiated. I'm realy quite stumped on your cac's. Did you have other females in the tank?

Cacatuoides is a colony spawner with one male for a large territory governing several females. In your case of a 29 with lots of caves you might have been able to go with three females and one male. This is similar to my old colony of cacatuoides. Its possible the male and the female were fighting because he had no one else to bother. My female cac's like to be left alone to do their thing through the wriggler and early free swim stages.

Jonathon - Leaving the eggs with the parents is what I always suggest doing the first few times a new pair breeds so I feel you were right to do this. As far as lowering CaCO3 and other mineral levels in the tank (which will bring down your overall GH or hardness level) you might consider mixing your tap water with distilled water from the grocery store. Do this slowly, in stages, so you do not shock the fish. I would simply use a 50/50 mix or so of distilled/tap for water changes from now on and this should eventually bring your tank's hardness levels down to a better level.

I dont know offhand if there is a specific mg/L or ppm level of CaCO3 to aspire to but your fish should do well in a range of 6 to 13 dGH. I wonder what your GH reading is now?

Plants in the tank will probably only help a little bit at absorbing the excess minerals in the water. You would really need a thriving, multispecies community of plants to make a big dent in the mineral readings and even then you'd be investing in CO2 supplements and powerful lighting to get to that point. You can try the swords and similar hardy plants if you have decent light, at least 1.5 wpg.

Hope that helps -
>Sarah

 

[Samala]

Almost forgot - using peat granules in your filter (Fluval sells a product for this I believe) would help to acidify and soften the water by lowering pH and gH. It will tint the water brown though and you will need to watch how low your pH and gH actually go. In very hard water, which yours seems to be, peat may not have a very big effect on pH or gH but it might be worth a shot.

I would experiment with ways to drop the pH and gH that are low-cost first so you can verify that it is excess calcium and minerals in the water that is preventing the fish from breeding. Dont spend a lot of money on an RO unit until you can fix your breeding problem first by altering the water chemistry. It is entirely possible that something else is the culprit but I strongly feel your hardness levels are to blame (especially since you are failing with several species).

>Sarah

 

[mooman]

Samala

Pot was not glazed, just cheap pottery form garden center. I think it was just one of those things that happens with apitos.

I wanted to have a colony, but at $20.00 each that was out of my price range (before I knew how awsome they were). My LFS just got in a load of apistos A.pandurini and agazizzi (they are absolutely spectacular). I am going to get a trio soon. any experience with either of these species?