Purchasing a CO2 system - please help.

[podheadx]

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=9935&N=2004+113779

This one just seems like a better deal. Its cheaper and a bonus on this one is it has a solenoid valve on it (which means that you can put the co2 tank itself on a timer and not waste co2 at night) it doesnt look like the red sea has that option.

And with the money you just saved you could buy a nice sized co2 tank and have it filled like twice before you spend as much as you did on the other one.

I don't have either of these systems I have a diy 2L so actually, I really don't know what im talkin about. Check in to it before you but it (though I know that Dr. F+S is great!!!) Check out what the other plant stuff on there site, you could put together the kit seperatly if you wanted too, or mix systems needle from F+S, and reactor from red sea, whatever.

I just always scoped this one out for my first buy....hopefully....someday....soon

good luck

oh ya, with the solenoid one you can buy a pH controler, and have the co2 injected automaticly when the pH alows it, at night as pH goes down, co2 would shut off automaticly, great stuff.

 

[shoe]

Shoe: It is expensive crap that doesn't work. Look at the links I took the time to post for you...

I tried to but they didn't work... not sure why but could be related to corporate firewall...

 

[shoe]

1) You get like a max of 10-15 ppm co2 concentration which is even lower than DIY sugar yeast.

2) Cost a ton, almost the same as a complete pressurized co2 sys

3) Money drain, each replacement cartridge cost like $30 and you need to do it every month or 2.

4) worst of all, it lowers your kh/hardness which creates unnecessary risk for your tank!

1) Regards point 1, do you have proof or are you voicing someone else's opinion? Because when I run the unit flat out, the fish behave as though they are oxygen starved - seems there's plenty of co2 in the tank if the fish suffer. I'm going to need a co2 monitor to confirm your 10-15 ppm statement but not really sure I can compare against DIY do it since I've never done that... What is your optimal co2 standard anyway?

2) What type of 'complete' co2 system can be had for $149.58?
Aquarium Carbo Plus CO2 Unit (Aq. Prod) (Add shipping of course

3) I can pick up plates online for around 10 dollars. Also, the 6-8 weeks life expectany of the plates is based on running the unit 24 hours a day. I run mine ONLY when the lights are on and that's for 8 hours daily, tripling your (1 to 2 months) estimate to 18-24 weeks or 3 to 6 months. And, when the plates are close to death, one can pull the plate out and insert it upside down for even more life.

4) All co2 lowers hardness. But in addition, lower hardness (in any system) means the co2 is more effective AND plants do better lower hardness AS do the type of fish I run. Seems to me if you want to run harder water, you are forced to dump more co2 into the tank as compensation.

Also, are you saying there are no PRO's to CARBO PLUS and that there are no CON's to purchasing a co2 system?

 

[fresh_newby]

try going to www.aquabotanic.com then go to AB online store then CO2 products. Milwaukee all in one on sale.
then go to www.rexgrigg.com go to CO2 then CO2 stuff for sale and get a brass check valve. That;s it. No argument. You asked for our opinion, and I have seen it tried and true. Also go to www.rexgrigg.com and go to CO2 then DIY reactor. Make it. It is easy and cheap and it works. Or go to drsfostersandsmith and get an Aquamedic1000 reactor that you can plumb in the line.

 

[John N.]

The cons of a pressurized system is the initial start up costs i.e. 10# CO2 cylinder + regulator. This lumped costs generally is $150. Thereafter, one will pay only $10-20 to refill the cylinder every year.

#10 CO2 cylinder filled locally - $65-70
Milwaukee/JBJ/Azoo regulator - $80

The Carbo Plus Unit initial startup costs is around $150 without shipping. Every 2 months, blocks need to be placed for $10-30. Yearly costs to replace equates to $60-100+.

That's only the costs differences. Functionality differences favor a pressurized CO2 setup. The fact that you have more flexibility to increase the CO2 amount via pressurized units verses Carbo-Plus unit is a huge positive for a pressurized setup. This means a carbo-plus unit is a fixed output (much like DIY CO2). So the comparison with DIY CO2 is on the mark, your CO2 rates will vary and clearly won't be as high as the block looses steam. Pressurized will is fixed CO2 output, no fluctuations.

The goal is to achieve a balance in a Planted Aquarium with light, ferts, and CO2. A pressurized CO2 system will help you achieve this better than a Carbo-Unit.

-John N.

 

[fresh_newby]

Well put John. Right on the mark.

 

[gagaliya]

fresh_newby,

regarding 4), to put it into simple terms: CO2 does not lower KH, CO2 lowers PH. KH is just a buffer for PH, it determines the amount of CO2 required to lower PH. The carbo plus on the other hand actually lowers KH. A constant changing KH in my opinion affects the stability of the tank, i know you dont believe it. I guess that's something we just have to agree to disagree.

shoes,

John pretty much covered it. One addition, fish gasping means lack of o2, doesnt necessarily mean high co2. If you think carbo plus is a great product then good for you, i just dont think it should be recommended to anyone, especially over pressurized for about the same cost.

 

[fresh_newby]

fresh_newby,

regarding 4), to put it into simple terms: CO2 does not lower KH, CO2 lowers PH. KH is just a buffer for PH, it determines the amount of CO2 required to lower PH. The carbo plus on the other hand actually lowers KH. A constant changing KH in my opinion affects the stability of the tank, i know you dont believe it. I guess that's something we just have to agree to disagree.

shoes,

John pretty much covered it. One addition, fish gasping means lack of o2, doesnt necessarily mean high co2. If you think carbo plus is a great product then good for you, i just dont think it should be recommended to anyone, especially over pressurized for about the same cost.

I hear you. I wasn't referring to the carbo plus. You are correct in thinking that fluctuating kh is bad. I read it wrong. I am in agreement.
As for fish gasping it can usually be too much CO2, lack of O2 or water movement, or a combinaton of both. But I see your point. Bottom line Carbo plus not my gold standard of choice....

 

[shoe]

The cons of a pressurized system is the initial start up costs i.e. 10# CO2 cylinder + regulator. This lumped costs generally is $150. Thereafter, one will pay only $10-20 to refill the cylinder every year.

#10 CO2 cylinder filled locally - $65-70
Milwaukee/JBJ/Azoo regulator - $80

Your quote regards the CARBO 'without shipping' seems biased since you don't mention a shipping cost associated with a fixed system. If you are saying that a fixed system can be bought locally, negating a shipping charge then I can just as easy say the same. There are shops in my town that sell them. Of course there is also local tax which I hope you are factoring in.

Also, I have a propane tank filled now and again and it's a pain. At times I have to stand in line in 100 degree weather just to have it filled then need to wait again in line to pay.

The Carbo Plus Unit initial startup costs is around $150 without shipping. Every 2 months, blocks need to be placed for $10-30. Yearly costs to replace equates to $60-100+.

No disrespect John but I've already mentioned I don't spend up to 30 on carbon plates nor do I replace them every 2 months.

It's $10 every 4-5 months which equates to just under 30 a year.

That's only the costs differences.

Regards the regulator, does that also include the necessary hardware to get the co2 into the tank? For example, the system starting off the thread is quoted as a 'complete system' and it sells for 219 without shipping (or tax) I gather and it seems from the comments mentioned, it is a good system. Is the $150 system you recommend comparable?

Functionality differences favor a pressurized CO2 setup.

I'm in relative agreement with this since you have the flexibilty to jet stream co2 into the tank if you are so include. No, not implying that you would.

I agree that being able to blow straight co2 into a tank if the value is cranked up is more flexible that a governed system but then, that flexibilty also makes for a more dangerous system where, for example, the regulator goes bad, gobs of co2 enter the tank and your fiish are dead.

But also, the CARBO does have a regulator and I've already mentioned that I CANNOT crank it wide open as it dumps too much co2 into the tank, thereby affecting the fish... They tend to rise to the top of the tank in search of oxygen

If the CARBO regulator did break, can't imagine massive amounts of co2 entering the tank. There are electrical issues to consider

So the comparison with DIY CO2 is on the mark, your CO2 rates will vary and clearly won't be as high as the block looses steam. Pressurized will is fixed CO2 output, no fluctuations.

As mentioned, CARBO is adjustable and from what I've read here, DYI is intended for small tanks. Still having an issue seeing the connection.

But also as the cylinder depletes, you need to make adjustments to keep co2 at the appropriate levels and, those adjustments affect the hardness of your water. Not sure about the system you are promoting but the CARBO has a VERY visible LED that can be used spot checked from a distance to make sure co2 output is constant, In addition it's easier and cheaper to have plates on hand for a quick changeout if a plate is spent... Am assuming it could take hours to switch out a cylinder if you don't have anothor on-hald. In that time, the dynamics of your tank are fluxuting.

As well, co2 plates are delivered to my door... no need for me to leave the house for refills (I have them onhand) and the system is small, taking up very little space.

Regards steam, both systems lose it but it seems, the CARBO system is easier to both detect and resolve and cheaper if reaction time is to be considered (since a quick cylinder change requires a 2nd fully charged unit or a charging station open 24-7).

The goal is to achieve a balance in a Planted Aquarium with light, ferts, and CO2. A pressurized CO2 system will help you achieve this better than a Carbo-Unit.

-John N.

Agreed at least in regards to balance!


Now, I don't have experience with a cylinder (perhaps 1 day I will) but do have CARBO experience. Wondering if any of you have CARBO experience - seems there is a lot of bias against the system here but no practical experience to back it up - seems there is a lot of 'go here go there' instead of 'in my experience...'.

As I mentioned, I did try the sites originally posted but had issue trying to get to them - but not from a lack of trying.

I will check into the sites listed when I get to the house. But really, I have a system in place and its hard to put stock in other opinions since I experience the CARBO 1st hand

 

[shoe]

shoes,

shoe

If you think carbo plus is a great product then good for you, i just dont think it should be recommended to anyone, especially over pressurized for about the same cost.

You concerns regards cost are valid but seems a more educated decision is based on a wide range of issues.

I don't necessarily recommend it in fact there's no mention of my recommending it ANYWHERE.

By by the same token I here in this thread 'junk' and 'crap' and that really isn't acceptable either.

But finally, I'm still learning and perhaps one day may switch to a cylinder hoever, militancy and mis-information isn't going to get me there nor will unrealistic price quotes of what to expect to 'do it right'.