Yes, I was using "beneficial" interchangeably with "nitrifying" bacteria. Is there any other helpful aspect(besides preventing cloudy water) that any of the non-nitrifying bacteria provides?
python cleaner
- Thread starter slvrcvc
- Start date
The heterotrophs and saprophytes do >>90% of the breakdown of solid waste (poop, uneaten or only partially digested food, plant debris, undiscoved dead fish, etc.) in the tank. They are the aerobic vesion of a septic tank. They also are the basis of the in-tank food chain, however abbreviated it may be - bacteria eat this and that and absorb other dissolved things from the water, are in turn eaten by infusoria, nematodes, planaria, etc which are removed in filter and subtrate cleaning or just by water partials if not grazed by the inhabitants. They generate significant amounts of metabolic waste on their own, but our view of that is hidden by the much larger output of the fish.
Without them we would have on-going new tank counditions of cloudy water, etc.
The total biomass in a mature tank is normally in balance and not noticed, but it is lot bigger than most folks realize. The nitrifying bacteria get only their energy from oxidizing nitrogenous waste (their version of carbs). The rest of their food supply comes from dissolved materals mineralized by the rest of tank biomass.
Without them we would have on-going new tank counditions of cloudy water, etc.
The total biomass in a mature tank is normally in balance and not noticed, but it is lot bigger than most folks realize. The nitrifying bacteria get only their energy from oxidizing nitrogenous waste (their version of carbs). The rest of their food supply comes from dissolved materals mineralized by the rest of tank biomass.
Last edited:
Confusion. Questions.
By RTR
1. So dissolved materials are like vitamins and nutrients to the nitrifying bacteria?
2. What do you mean by dissolved materials mineralized by the rest of the tank biomass? How do they mineralize?
3. Do you mean mineralize the same as like the minerals that are replenished with partials?
4. If someone doesn't do partials would all the bacteria use up all the minerals and then starve or does the biomass make/recycle the minerals? Or will they get more because we feed the inhabitants?
By RTR
1. So dissolved materials are like vitamins and nutrients to the nitrifying bacteria?
2. What do you mean by dissolved materials mineralized by the rest of the tank biomass? How do they mineralize?
3. Do you mean mineralize the same as like the minerals that are replenished with partials?
4. If someone doesn't do partials would all the bacteria use up all the minerals and then starve or does the biomass make/recycle the minerals? Or will they get more because we feed the inhabitants?
Bacteria are relatively simple (opening myself up on that one- they really are not simple at all, "relatively" is the operative term) single-celled critters.
Some, the autotrophs (which include nitrification bacteria) generally live quite firmly attached to a hard (their definition, not ours - to them a sponge or floss is hard as it is solid and inert) substrate. They get everything they need to live and grow by in-taking/uptaking material dissolved in the water which is almost entirely inorganic (no carbon chains, proteins, cyclic hormones, etc.) . From that dissolved material they produce all the proteins, fats, etc. - the organics that make up their cells and walls - that they need. They have the "simplest" diet, as it is inorganic.
Others, the heterotrophs (generally much faster growing than the autotrophs and numerically the biggest part of the bacterial mass in a tank) tend to live on particulates also, but on organic to partly organic particulates. They need/want/use organics to start with. They are the great digestors. A fish poops - that poop contains some undigested unabsorbed food (percent depending in part on how badly the tank is overfed - in worst cases it is the majority), in part fish waste products secreted into the gut, and large numbers of gut bacteria. The bit of poop falling to the substrate already has some functional bacteria (some of the gut bacteria will not like the O2 level of the open tank, but some will) and will quickly be colonized by other species. All those bacteria in concert will break down the poop into smaller particles with lower quantities of organics. Those smaller particles will get picked up by the filter and hopefully trapped in the mechanical media there, where the breakdown to even lower organic loads will continue. Some of those particles will sift down in the substrate, where the O2 levels are lower and similar bacteria which like less oxygen (faculative anaerobes and anaerobes) do essentially the same role of extracting and using the organics. The resulting "mulm" (the tank equivalent of garden compost) is "mineralized" - the organics are extracted to build bacterial mass, the inorganics are a bit enriched, at least relatively so. These bacteria have much less simple diets, as theywant/need/use organics. What they leave behind is mineralized as it has little organic, primarily mineral materials left.
When we partial we remove masses of heterotrophs and thier ilk from non-bacterial realms, especially when we vacuum, and the same when we rinse the mechanical filter media.
Tanks have huge biomass in comparison to natural waters, in part because the fish load is so much greater, but also in part because of the added food (also greater to much greater than in the wild) and the massive bacterial presence needed to mineralize alll the intermediate results of that.
Bacteria are master recyclers. If there is an excess of this of that bacterium species, it can and will eat itself out of the food supply and die back. But others will consume the residues and continue - and the die-back is rarely total, only partial.
The dangerous losses to the tank over time are mainly to the natural buffering systems - carbonate/bicarbonate - such that the tank build up excessive acidity if not partialled to replace that. But mulm itself can build up to excessive levels also - then you also get the peculiar members of the food chain multiplying to the levels of notice - BGA, nematodes, planaria, hydra (in non-fry tanks) etc. as the infusoria on which they live are multiplying due to the enlarged (built-up) mineral and organic base. That organic base does include the total bacterial/infusorian mass present in the tank.
Heavy enough?
Some, the autotrophs (which include nitrification bacteria) generally live quite firmly attached to a hard (their definition, not ours - to them a sponge or floss is hard as it is solid and inert) substrate. They get everything they need to live and grow by in-taking/uptaking material dissolved in the water which is almost entirely inorganic (no carbon chains, proteins, cyclic hormones, etc.) . From that dissolved material they produce all the proteins, fats, etc. - the organics that make up their cells and walls - that they need. They have the "simplest" diet, as it is inorganic.
Others, the heterotrophs (generally much faster growing than the autotrophs and numerically the biggest part of the bacterial mass in a tank) tend to live on particulates also, but on organic to partly organic particulates. They need/want/use organics to start with. They are the great digestors. A fish poops - that poop contains some undigested unabsorbed food (percent depending in part on how badly the tank is overfed - in worst cases it is the majority), in part fish waste products secreted into the gut, and large numbers of gut bacteria. The bit of poop falling to the substrate already has some functional bacteria (some of the gut bacteria will not like the O2 level of the open tank, but some will) and will quickly be colonized by other species. All those bacteria in concert will break down the poop into smaller particles with lower quantities of organics. Those smaller particles will get picked up by the filter and hopefully trapped in the mechanical media there, where the breakdown to even lower organic loads will continue. Some of those particles will sift down in the substrate, where the O2 levels are lower and similar bacteria which like less oxygen (faculative anaerobes and anaerobes) do essentially the same role of extracting and using the organics. The resulting "mulm" (the tank equivalent of garden compost) is "mineralized" - the organics are extracted to build bacterial mass, the inorganics are a bit enriched, at least relatively so. These bacteria have much less simple diets, as theywant/need/use organics. What they leave behind is mineralized as it has little organic, primarily mineral materials left.
When we partial we remove masses of heterotrophs and thier ilk from non-bacterial realms, especially when we vacuum, and the same when we rinse the mechanical filter media.
Tanks have huge biomass in comparison to natural waters, in part because the fish load is so much greater, but also in part because of the added food (also greater to much greater than in the wild) and the massive bacterial presence needed to mineralize alll the intermediate results of that.
Bacteria are master recyclers. If there is an excess of this of that bacterium species, it can and will eat itself out of the food supply and die back. But others will consume the residues and continue - and the die-back is rarely total, only partial.
The dangerous losses to the tank over time are mainly to the natural buffering systems - carbonate/bicarbonate - such that the tank build up excessive acidity if not partialled to replace that. But mulm itself can build up to excessive levels also - then you also get the peculiar members of the food chain multiplying to the levels of notice - BGA, nematodes, planaria, hydra (in non-fry tanks) etc. as the infusoria on which they live are multiplying due to the enlarged (built-up) mineral and organic base. That organic base does include the total bacterial/infusorian mass present in the tank.
Heavy enough?
Last edited:
Dude, that's just wrong............... :thud:
Ok, I think I understand most of what you said.
To see if I got it I will state your answers to my questions in English:
1. In a way. Nitrifying bacteria eats inorganic(mineralized) material dissolved in the water as well as the Ammonia/Nitrite.
2. Wastes in the tank such as poop and uneaten food is broken down by a type of bacteria(non-nitrifying) that survives on organic material. The leftovers include the inorganic material along with any organic material that may be left over. That is how the biomass mineralizes.
3. No. The minerals that are replaced with partials is to replace the carbonate/bicarbonate in order to maintain the natural buffering system, as well as to keep down the levels of acidity.
4. The minerals are replaced when we feed the inhabitants of the tank. As well as the resulting inhabitant's wastes. They do recycle the minerals in this sense(food->poop->organic eating bacteria->inorganic eating bacteria(nitrifying bacteria)).
Is that right?
God I hope that's right.
Ok, I think I understand most of what you said.
To see if I got it I will state your answers to my questions in English:
1. In a way. Nitrifying bacteria eats inorganic(mineralized) material dissolved in the water as well as the Ammonia/Nitrite.
2. Wastes in the tank such as poop and uneaten food is broken down by a type of bacteria(non-nitrifying) that survives on organic material. The leftovers include the inorganic material along with any organic material that may be left over. That is how the biomass mineralizes.
3. No. The minerals that are replaced with partials is to replace the carbonate/bicarbonate in order to maintain the natural buffering system, as well as to keep down the levels of acidity.
4. The minerals are replaced when we feed the inhabitants of the tank. As well as the resulting inhabitant's wastes. They do recycle the minerals in this sense(food->poop->organic eating bacteria->inorganic eating bacteria(nitrifying bacteria)).
Is that right?
God I hope that's right.
................i got it?..........................I GOT IT!!!.............YAAAAA!!!!.....
I'm going to add to my sig, "I can read RTR." lol
No way................
Uhm........I'm starting to notice everyone except RTR and I are avoiding this thread like the plague......
I'm going to add to my sig, "I can read RTR." lol
No way................
Uhm........I'm starting to notice everyone except RTR and I are avoiding this thread like the plague......
But do keep in mind that ammonia or nitrite is the energy source for the nitrifying bacteria much more than anything else, and that their oxidation processes on those materials uses O2 and dumps H+ into the water (aerobic - uses oxygen, and acid-producing - so uses up buffer capacity)
Also remember that all the biomass excretes waste products - for the aerobic bacteria & infusoria this includes ammonia/ammonium, so they are part of the load on nitrification bacteria. This is part of why food reduction is so commonly suggested in fish cycling - it really does reduce bioload on the biofilter.
And this all totally ignores the DOC and dissolved mineral buildup removal from water changes - which is just as big & real a benefit to the tank as is buffer replenishment. This factor is part of what keeps the tank water parameters close to source levels, not just the alkalinity replenishment - much of that could be done by mineral addition, but with the downside of ever higher mineralization of the system..
At least there are some folks still noticing- that can't be a bad thing. It may help refute the common concept of running a "clean" (or even worse, "sterile") tank. There is no such thing - there are well-maintained tanks and then there those which are not - but they all have masses of unseen life forms working hard 24/7 and needing a bit of work now and then by the keeper to maintain an even keel.
Also remember that all the biomass excretes waste products - for the aerobic bacteria & infusoria this includes ammonia/ammonium, so they are part of the load on nitrification bacteria. This is part of why food reduction is so commonly suggested in fish cycling - it really does reduce bioload on the biofilter.
And this all totally ignores the DOC and dissolved mineral buildup removal from water changes - which is just as big & real a benefit to the tank as is buffer replenishment. This factor is part of what keeps the tank water parameters close to source levels, not just the alkalinity replenishment - much of that could be done by mineral addition, but with the downside of ever higher mineralization of the system..
At least there are some folks still noticing- that can't be a bad thing. It may help refute the common concept of running a "clean" (or even worse, "sterile") tank. There is no such thing - there are well-maintained tanks and then there those which are not - but they all have masses of unseen life forms working hard 24/7 and needing a bit of work now and then by the keeper to maintain an even keel.
Last edited:
