Questions about cycling

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keldan

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Hello! I’m returning to the hobby after twenty years. I’ve been reading about the nitrogen cycle and think I understand it reasonably well (considering, at least, that I don’t have a degree in chemistry!). I do have a few questions though and would appreciate your input!

1. After I set up and planted my new tank (a fluval flex 15g), my LFS gave me a bag full of dirty water squeezed from their filters full of beneficial bacteria to kickstart the cycle. The owner of the store was adamant that after a day of adding this water and running it through my filter the tank would be safe for fish and he said if I didn’t add fish all the bacteria would die. I have followed his advice and have had a fish in there for a week and just added a few more yesterday. Daily water testing has so far revealed no problems. Does this strategy sound okay?

2. If one were to do a normal in-fish cycle without following the strategy above, how long would it take for ammonia to start showing up? How quickly does it build? And then how long after that do nitrites and then nitrates start appearing?

3. In terms of Ammonia tests I’m using an API test kit. I’ve found the ammonia test hard to read and it seems to change depending on light conditions. It is never a bright yellow like on the test strip, it’s much more pale; in some lights it looks like it might have a tinge of green in it, in others, it doesn’t. The color has remained remarkably consistent and hasn’t changed over time. Does anyone have experience or advice about reading the water color on the API test?

4. My tap water has approximately 1.00ppm of ammonia in it (and that does show up in an API test as a dark green). Should this change the frequency with which I do water changes or how I do them? When I do them I’ve been treating the water with Seachem Prime. Is there anything else I should do about the ammonia in the tap water?

5. Does Seachem Prime (when used with normal or double doses) harm the fish at all? Are there any downsides to treating water with Seachem Prime?

6. If Seachem Prime is used to neutralize ammonia, nitrites or nitrates can the API water test still detect its presence at the original levels?

6. How much of an impact do plants have on the nitrogen cycle? Do they absorb ammonia, nitrites and nitrates? If so, how much?

Thanks so much for your help!
 

fishorama

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Prime will break the ammonia & chlorine bond but ammonia will still show on API test. I know it can be hard to tell the colors, my husband also sees color differently than I do. Prime will keep ammonia from being harmful for ~48 hours until hopefully your beneficial bacteria & plants will have "used" it up. It depends on the plants, how many & how fast growing they are. Things like java fern, moss & anubias grow slow & don't use the ammonia as fast as say stem plants. Plants actually like ammonia more than nitrite or nitrate. Two TankAmin has written about what exactly happens in much more scientific detail.

You may not see any nitrite but that's good when starting with enough of both strains of bacteria. It's when doing an ammonia fishless cycle that you'll see them as each bacteria colony forms.

What plants do you have? Just 1 fish? What kind? The bacteria will adjust to the amount of food & waste available. They may not die out without enough but may go dormant. But the bacteria can double in ~24 hours. That's why you want to add almost all the fish at 1 time but again Prime will keep the ammonia & nitrite at safe levels, only water changes & plants remove nitrate.

Plants in addition to using ammonia for food also may have a layer of biofilm & the good bacteria you want if they were from a tank with fish rather than the kind in a plastic bag grown in a cup.

With all this stuff there isn't an exact way to tell, too many variables. Can you post a pic? If you're not sure, do a water change, that won't hurt anything, the bacteria grow on all surfaces & not in the water column..

I have double dosed Prime on occasion, I don't think it hurts but I wouldn't go higher either. If you still test ammonia after 48 hours & you really, really can't do a water change I have dosed a tank's amount of Prime.
 

keldan

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Thanks for the helpful response! I started with a honey gourami a day after I seeded the filter with bacteria from the LFS, and then added 6 cardinal tetras and a snail about 5 days later. Hope I did it right. I may add something else in a week or two, either three otos if I get bad algae build up (though that might be pushing it in terms of bioload?) or else a guppy or platy to finish the look (or maybe a couple extra cardinal tetras to increase the school?). For plants I've got some val, crypt and creeping jenny in there (none of which seem to be doing too great, but that's another question). I haven't done any water changes yet as my nitrates are at 0 and I'm also concerned about the ammonia level in my tap water (any advice about that? Just detoxify with prime and the BB should eat it within the 48 hours?) If I ever do get an ammonia or nitrite build up, what is the dose of prime to use (it says 2 drops per gallon at start up...would it be the same to detoxify ammonia in a tank already set up, i.e. 30 drops in a 15 gallon tank)? Thanks again!
 
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1. After I set up and planted my new tank (a fluval flex 15g), my LFS gave me a bag full of dirty water squeezed from their filters full of beneficial bacteria to kickstart the cycle. The owner of the store was adamant that after a day of adding this water and running it through my filter the tank would be safe for fish and he said if I didn’t add fish all the bacteria would die. I have followed his advice and have had a fish in there for a week and just added a few more yesterday. Daily water testing has so far revealed no problems. Does this strategy sound okay?

Cycling is needed because of the toxicity of ammonia. Ammonia in water breaks down into two compornents, NH3 which is the nasty gas we all know and which is extremely toxic and NH4 (ammonium) which is way less toxic. For the most part hibby test kits measure Total Ammonia (TA) which is the sum of both NH# and NH$4. The bacteria (fopr the most part) prefer NH3 while live plants and algae prefer NH4. Even more imortantly, plants can consume NH4 way faster than bacteria consume NH3. Additionally, aquatic plants naturally have the nitrifying bacteria living on them. So when we add live plants to a tank, we are also adding nitrifying bacteria. The mulm you were given contains a lot of the needed nitrifying bacteria. What you did was to got at ammonia mitigation from both directions and your tank was able to pricess ammonia way way sooner than would be the case in a typical fishless cycle.

Your store guy was correct on helping making your tank safe. However, he was not accurate on what he told you about how fast the bacteria might die in the absence of an ammonia source. This is a different topic which I won't pursue here.

2. If one were to do a normal in-fish cycle without following the strategy above, how long would it take for ammonia to start showing up? How quickly does it build? And then how long after that do nitrites and then nitrates start appearing?

Have a read here for the answer https://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/threads/freshwater-cycling.84598/page-22#post-2969575

There re no hard and fast rules here. How many fish, which fish, what size tank etc. etc. Then there is the fact that one must stick gradually when trying to cycle using fish. But if you are asking how long from dat one until the tank is fully stocked, i would say 3 months maybe 4. A successful fishledd cycle allows one to stock 100% when it is done and that takes anythere from a rapi d 4 weeks to a slow 10 weeks. This assumes one does not have any source of added bacteria at the outset.

3. In terms of Ammonia tests I’m using an API test kit. I’ve found the ammonia test hard to read and it seems to change depending on light conditions. It is never a bright yellow like on the test strip, it’s much more pale; in some lights it looks like it might have a tinge of green in it, in others, it doesn’t. The color has remained remarkably consistent and hasn’t changed over time. Does anyone have experience or advice about reading the water color on the API test?

When reading the result, place the test tube against the white backgrund on the color card along side of the color bars. Have the light source coming from behind you and lighting up the card and test tube from that position. Sunlight is best, but artificial light can work almost as well if you make sure the light is behind you. By ddoing things this way you will equalize the color of the bars and of he contents of the test tube in similar fashions making them more comparable.

4. My tap water has approximately 1.00ppm of ammonia in it (and that does show up in an API test as a dark green). Should this change the frequency with which I do water changes or how I do them? When I do them I’ve been treating the water with Seachem Prime. Is there anything else I should do about the ammonia in the tap water?

When and how are you measuring the tap water. Do you add any dechlor before you test it? Prime is not only a declor, it is also an ammonia detoxifier. So it should neiutralize any ammonia in the water, up to a point. Unless you have absolute control over your water supply which would include from it ioriginates and how it may be processed in between, there is nothing you can do except to use an ammonia detoxifier.

Many dechlors, including Prime. can break down chlormine into its two components. chlorine and ammonia. This is why many dechlors also contain an ammonia detoxifier.

5. Does Seachem Prime (when used with normal or double doses) harm the fish at all? Are there any downsides to treating water with Seachem Prime?

It depends upon who you ask. I have excellent water from out private well. I do not use dechlors. However, over the years I have sold fish at events and had to use hotel water. I have both Amquel and Prime for such events. I am not a fan of Prime for one reason, it contains something to help with the slime coat of the fish and I prefer not to use such chemicals. I will not put Aloe Vera into my tank water either. This is a personal decision on my part and there are millions of fish keepers using Prime.

6. If Seachem Prime is used to neutralize ammonia, nitrites or nitrates can the API water test still detect its presence at the original levels?

No. In fact Sechem will tell you this on their site if you know where to look. Go here, scroll down and click on FAQ https://www.seachem.com/prime.php you will see this among other info:
I am using Prime® to control ammonia but my test kit says it is not doing anything, in fact it looks like it added ammonia! What is going on?

A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime®... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime®). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime® complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest™ Ammonia kit; it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime® or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (total ammonia is both free ammonia and non-toxic ionized forms of ammonia).
Sechem will also tell you they have no clue how Prime neutralizes nitrite or nitrate.

6. How much of an impact do plants have on the nitrogen cycle? Do they absorb ammonia, nitrites and nitrates? If so, how much?

See my answer above. Here is the problem with trying to answer your question. How much and how fast plants use ammonia depends on the species of plant. It further depends on the level of planting one does. One tank is lightly planted, another moderately planted and the third is heavily planted. If they used the exact same species of plants, then the more there are, the more ammonia that will be handled. This is complicated by the fact that too much ammonia can harm plants just as it can harm other living things in a tank,

The only way I know to get a handle on how much ammonia any planted tank can process is to dose and test. The most sensitive plants cannot withstand much ammonia. So I suggest one use the following method with planting a tank and testing to see how ammonia "safe" it is. Plant the tank and give it 10-14 days for the plants to settle in and establish roots if they are in the substrate. Then do a test. Add 1 ppm of ammonia to the tank and then test at 12 hour intervals. If the ammonia is gone in 12 hours, you can add some fish. If it takes 24 2, you can add a small number of fish. If it is not gone in 24 hours it needs to develop more bacteria (or you can add more plant). Developing more bacteria will require you resort to doing a mini-fishless cycle.

If you clear 1 ppm of ammonia in 12 hours and would like to stock the tank fully, you should first repeat the above test but at an ammonia level of 2 ppm. Use the same 12/24 hour testing. If you can clear the ammonia in 24 hours or less, you can add a full load of fish, but do not overstock. I do not advise ever adding more than 2 ppm of ammonia to a plantted tank.

Adding plants to a tank changes the nitrification paradigm. The ammonia which gets consumed by the plants does not produce any nitrite and, therefore, no nitrate either. Only the micro-organisms do this. Further, plants can use nitrate. Most prefer ammonia, but they can process the nitrate though less efficiently. To my knowledge the plants do not use nitrite. Bear in mind that trying to do a fishless cycle in a planted tank will confuse the heck out of those new to the hobby. How can you see how a cycle is progressing if the numbers for nitrite and nitrate are very low or even absent? One needs to rely heavily on the ammonia test. The one thing we know for sure is we do not want to see nitrite showing up on our test kit before we add fish.

I will conclude by saying that the most effective filter any tank can have is a planted substrate. The next best filters after that would a Hamburg Mattenfilter or a properly set up and maintained reverse flow undergravel filter (not recommended for planted tanks as the roots clog the substrate and reduce the flow though rate).
 

fishorama

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See I told you TTA could explain better.

Algae can become a problem if the plants don't use the available food. Keeping your lights on for 6 or 7 hours is as long as most plants need. I use a cheap timer. You can even split the time say 3 hours at lunch then 3 hours in the evening. Some think that helps with algae control too. Of course if your tank gets any direct or bright indirect sunlight that can add a lot to the algae problem.

Otos should not be added to a newly set up tank. They are often starved by the time they get to shops & often don't eat prepared foods or veggies, at least at first. They also don't eat all types of algae. So wait 4-6 months & get them because you like them not to cure algae. Look for fat tummies & see if they are offered algae wafers &/or veggies & watch to see if they actually eat them. I also never clean the back glass so there's algae & a nice biofilm for fish to graze on.

Oh & your tank doesn't really hold 15g, probably closer to 12 or so. Tank sizes are loosely based on external dimensions & then there's substrate & décor taking up space too. For small tanks I use a bucket to remove water & gallon jugs to refill using 2 drops/g Prime.

On adding other fish, I'd prefer more of 1 species, cardinals are even better with more! Also tetras & gouramis prefer softer water, livebearers hard. It's less an issue when many of our fish are farmed not wild caught. But it's not my tank, lol. If you decide to get a livebearer try to make sure you get a male, you don't want fry in such a small tank & females are almost sure to be gravid. Guppies are easy, males are the pretty 1s. Look for a gonopodium for a male platy, Google pics.
 
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keldan

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Thanks so much for all the helpful replies! I love looking at pretty fish but also very much enjoy learning more about the science behind it and understanding what’s going on in my tank. A few follow up questions/comments:



How fast does the BB die in the event there is no ammonia source? Was I right to add fish so soon, or was this a mistake? On the advice of the fish store I added one fish (a honey gourami, that was my choice, not theirs) 24 hours after the bacteria from the store and then added 6 cardinal tetras within a week on the advice the extra BB would die out if I didn’t add more. The gourami has now been there for, I think, 8 days, and the cardinal tetras for 3. The gourami is doing great, the tetras I’m not so sure about; they feed well but one of them spends a lot of time alone hanging out at the back of the tank and I don’t know why. All fish are all tank raised; my water is definitely on the hard side, but it is the same as the store, which only uses local water.



The reason I asked how long it might take for ammonia levels to start showing is that I’m not sure I fully trust my API test (or rather my ability to read it). To be totally clear of ammonia the test shows I should have a bright yellow color of water on the test tube; what I have had from day the first day I started doing tests is a pale yellow that may or may not have a tinge of green in some lights, it’s hard to say. If something has gone wrong with adding the BB from the store, I was wondering how likely it is that ammonia would be showing up: the first day I did a test (when I got the kit) was a day after the first fish was added; it has always remained the exact same color since then. I definitely don’t have any nitrites or nitrates, those are clear readings.



In terms of my tap water, I haven’t really done any water changes yet because there are no nitrates, but when I first filled the tank I used prime (a double dose in fact) to decolorinate it and neutralize ammonia before adding it to the tank. I did a test of the tap water for interests’ sake and the API showed a bright apple green. My fish store also says there’s a lot of ammonia in the tap water right now, partly due to spring run off. Sadly I don’t have another water source like a well.



In terms of the plants, there are two creeping jennies, two fairly large val plants and a crypt. I have to say that none of the plants, since being introduced about two weeks ago are looking terribly happy. Is there any reason for this? I was told that crypt plants get stressed out when moved and die off but then come back. I added the plants before I added the bacteria from the fish store and before I added any fish. Is there any reason they might be sad?



Thanks again for all your help!
 

fishorama

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I think you're doing well. Plants, especially crypts, may need some time to adjust, no big deal. Remove any dead or yellow leaves.

I had to find my API ammonia color chart to recall what yellow & green mean. Yes, if you have ammonia in your tap water it will show ~1ppm ( a usual amount of city water chloramine treatment) on your test. BUT like we've said API will show both ammonia & the less harmful ammonium even though you are using Prime. It should go down to 0 within 24 hours.

Go ahead & do a 30% water change, don't vacuum, just water. Don't forget the Prime, but remember the tap ammonia of ~1ppm will show if you test. Wait a while until your plants recover to add more fish. Don't use fertilizers yet.
 

FreshyFresh

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keldan, welcome and it's great that you have done some homework on this!

Sorry if it's been mentioned, but it would have been more beneficial for your store guy to give you a bag of well established gravel or some sponge or floss media out of one of his filters. While he is on the right track with beneficial bacteria, not much of it is free floating in the water. It sticks to all surfaces in the tank, especially filtration media.
 
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fishorama

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FF, it was "filter squeezins" from OPs lfs, I read it twice to be sure I understood. That should have BB to get started.

keldan, I should have said to feed very lightly too. A bite or 2 per fish is enough, vacuum out any uneaten food.

Keep an eye on your loner cardinal. They can be hard to acclimate, often shops with guarantees don't include cardinals.
 
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keldan

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Thanks again. The fish store did not provide any used substrate but they did indeed squeeze water from their filters and then I poured that water over my filter, and then started adding fish a day later. Does this process cycle the tank "instantly" or just "get it started"? At what point, after this process, can one expect to have a totally cycled tank? I wish I had a clearer ammonia reading...it is either 0ppm or between 0 and .25ppm depending on the light and how one interprets the color. It has remained the exact shade of yellow since I started the tests. The nitrites and nitrates are both a clear 0.

The one cardinal tetra doesn't look too great. He joined his school for feeding today and ate but then went right back where he was in a little crevice between some wood and the glass. He just stays in that one place the whole time and also seems to be titled to the side a little bit. Do you think a water change might help this?

On the plant issue, I put 4 fertilizer "flourish tabs" in the substrate as soon as I transplanted the plants. Might that have harmed anything?
 
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