Rams: Belgian vs German, etc
- Thread starter FishBliss
- Start date
Our local mom and pop store has Angel rams, the same markings as a GBR, but the body shape as an angel.. 15.00 ea, same price as the gbr's...:goldfish:
you say: Bolivian Rams work well in groups as they are a very social fish, but they can also be kept simply as pairs and if the male is not too aggressive, in a 1m/2f group.
At the lfs there is a tank with just two B Rams. I have no idea if they are male or female. I can try to figure it out using the guide you created, but I can see that I stand a good chance (50/50, in fact) of getting it wrong. IF I bought both fish and IF they end up to be the same sex (either both F or both M) what might happen? The odds of getting 2 of the same sex are higher than of getting a mixed set, you know? I don't want to bring home a set of fish that is destined to be miserable (or dead).
Also, I have only 1 tank, 29 gal. No room for another tank. I can't really get a group. so 2 is the magic number -- if any.
At the lfs there is a tank with just two B Rams. I have no idea if they are male or female. I can try to figure it out using the guide you created, but I can see that I stand a good chance (50/50, in fact) of getting it wrong. IF I bought both fish and IF they end up to be the same sex (either both F or both M) what might happen? The odds of getting 2 of the same sex are higher than of getting a mixed set, you know? I don't want to bring home a set of fish that is destined to be miserable (or dead).
Also, I have only 1 tank, 29 gal. No room for another tank. I can't really get a group. so 2 is the magic number -- if any.
Lupin
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- Sep 21, 2006
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Call blue rams bu their standard name, 'blue rams', not 'German blue rams'. There are many blue rams that have been bred in different countries and I've seen the lot named 'Holland Blue Ram', 'Czech Blue Ram', etc.
Lupin if you look at the history of this fish you will see why they were given that name in the first place. It's a bit of a joke to hear "czech rams" etc. But technically they are Blue Rams - they are found in the wilds of the Orinoco River basin and in the flat plains of Venezuela and Colombia where they reside in shallow, small pools - hence why they tolerate much higher temperatures, imagine how warm their shallow pools get in South America! Not really German then. 
FishBliss, this is how it works:
You can keep up to 5 in a 30 gallon tank in a 2m/3f group, as long as you don't have a hyper territorial male (which I do) and as long as you keep a close eye on them. However I and several others feel that it is better to have AT LEAST a 40 gallon tank for a group of 5.
In a 30 gallon, if you wanted a larger group, I would recommend only ONE male and 4 females (one will eventually be removed). Obviously in getting a larger group you also increase your chances of finding the m/f ratio's you want and can then remove one that doesn't fit (hence why you get 4 instead of 3). In this stocking ratio you will see interesting group interactions and it's very interesting to watch the fish and learn their hierarchical order, it also means that aggression is better dispersed at times when breeding becomes an incentive (for them, not you lol).
Obviously you are saying the LFS only has two at this point in time and that if you get two males, what are you to do - well what I recommend is that you ask the LFS if they would order in a large group of Bolivian Rams for you because you will be after up to 4 fish.
Explain that you are looking to get a set m/f group and that in order to do this you will probably need to bring back at least one or two fish to exchange in order to find the ratios, explain that all you need to do is determine the sex and as soon as that has been done you can make the appropriate changes and would they be ok with this as it may take up to a month to determine the sex, depending on their age and prior condition. I've done this with several fish stores until I got the exact group I wanted.
I'd be amazed if they said no, but it is their right to.
The same goes for just getting two fish - again explain BEFORE you buy the fish that you need a male and female, that at this point in time it is too unclear as to the sex of the fish in their tanks and that if you end up with two males you need to be able to bring one back in exchange for another until you find a female.
To sex them just take photo's of the whole fish, side on and get as clear a shot as you can of where their vent is, post it up or PM me and I will sex them for you.
A pair would work very well in your tank, but you need to make sure there is plenty of cover in the form of driftwood and vegetation (even if it is fake) and not overly harsh lighting, if you have quite bright lighting then increase the density of their cover - these fish will show you much nice colouration if given the right conditions.
The main reason you want more cover, particularly with just a pair, is that you are more likely to experience breeding. Male Bolivian Rams can be relentless when wanting to spawn and if the female is not up to it or not yet ready she can get worn down. So in that tank you would need to keep a closer eye on them, on the whole though they'll get on swimmingly, you may only occasionally find that you need to move the male into a naughty box (floating fry refugiums work well as they obviously let tank water flow through, whilst keeping the male separated).
During this time you would get the female fed up and conditioned for spawning so that she has the strength and "resources" to both put up with the male and mate with him.
I keep my spawning pair in a 30 gallon tank with a few Lamp Eye Panchax as dithers and they get on great, I do have a very hyper-territorial male though (which is rare don't worry) so I have to be particularly attentive to the female in-between spawns, still, even in my circumstance I very rarely have to separate the two.
Talk to the LFS, see what you can work out, I'll help you all the way with the rest.
I hope that helps.
Blair.
FishBliss, this is how it works:
You can keep up to 5 in a 30 gallon tank in a 2m/3f group, as long as you don't have a hyper territorial male (which I do) and as long as you keep a close eye on them. However I and several others feel that it is better to have AT LEAST a 40 gallon tank for a group of 5.
In a 30 gallon, if you wanted a larger group, I would recommend only ONE male and 4 females (one will eventually be removed). Obviously in getting a larger group you also increase your chances of finding the m/f ratio's you want and can then remove one that doesn't fit (hence why you get 4 instead of 3). In this stocking ratio you will see interesting group interactions and it's very interesting to watch the fish and learn their hierarchical order, it also means that aggression is better dispersed at times when breeding becomes an incentive (for them, not you lol).
Obviously you are saying the LFS only has two at this point in time and that if you get two males, what are you to do - well what I recommend is that you ask the LFS if they would order in a large group of Bolivian Rams for you because you will be after up to 4 fish.
Explain that you are looking to get a set m/f group and that in order to do this you will probably need to bring back at least one or two fish to exchange in order to find the ratios, explain that all you need to do is determine the sex and as soon as that has been done you can make the appropriate changes and would they be ok with this as it may take up to a month to determine the sex, depending on their age and prior condition. I've done this with several fish stores until I got the exact group I wanted.
I'd be amazed if they said no, but it is their right to.
The same goes for just getting two fish - again explain BEFORE you buy the fish that you need a male and female, that at this point in time it is too unclear as to the sex of the fish in their tanks and that if you end up with two males you need to be able to bring one back in exchange for another until you find a female.
To sex them just take photo's of the whole fish, side on and get as clear a shot as you can of where their vent is, post it up or PM me and I will sex them for you.
A pair would work very well in your tank, but you need to make sure there is plenty of cover in the form of driftwood and vegetation (even if it is fake) and not overly harsh lighting, if you have quite bright lighting then increase the density of their cover - these fish will show you much nice colouration if given the right conditions.
The main reason you want more cover, particularly with just a pair, is that you are more likely to experience breeding. Male Bolivian Rams can be relentless when wanting to spawn and if the female is not up to it or not yet ready she can get worn down. So in that tank you would need to keep a closer eye on them, on the whole though they'll get on swimmingly, you may only occasionally find that you need to move the male into a naughty box (floating fry refugiums work well as they obviously let tank water flow through, whilst keeping the male separated).
During this time you would get the female fed up and conditioned for spawning so that she has the strength and "resources" to both put up with the male and mate with him.
I keep my spawning pair in a 30 gallon tank with a few Lamp Eye Panchax as dithers and they get on great, I do have a very hyper-territorial male though (which is rare don't worry) so I have to be particularly attentive to the female in-between spawns, still, even in my circumstance I very rarely have to separate the two.
Talk to the LFS, see what you can work out, I'll help you all the way with the rest.
I hope that helps.
Blair.
Here's what I did.
I went to the lfs and I guess my memory was wrong...they had 5 BRs. Actually, I think I'm just too short. The tank was above my eye level and on the first day I was there I didn't see a ladder. So I couldn't see everybody in there.
On the second visit I did see a ladder. So up I went.
I looked for a long time at the residents of the tank. After looking at the pics on your other forum I could tell they were young -- no suprise there in a fish store. And I came to the conclusion that there were 4 males and 1 female in the tank. One clue was the fact that one fish (the one I decided was female) was being kept at one side of the tank and was being escorted by one other fish who was making it quite clear that no one else was welcome on that side. The other 3 fish, also males I thought, each had a section -- one seemed to "own" the top of the filter, one at the side and one in the middle. They didn't chat or hang around with each other. But every now and then one would venture over to the honeymoon side. Dorsal fins would flare, the male would dash at the intruder and then rush back to make sure the female hadn't wandered. One male seemed pretty intent on trying to crash the party. He did finally succeed in swapping places. The other males remained in their places. I went away for awhile and when I came back the same male was together with the female.
So I felt like I would be bringing home a pair that had shown their willingness to be together and I bought those two.
Since bringing them home they have been exploring the tank, side by side for the most part but not always. From time to time one goes over and kind of "kisses" the other one. I know it's anthropomorphism to say that, but I don't know another way to describe it. Sort of like touching base. Not aggressive, just "checking in".
When I first brought them home they both had a lot of smudgy stress marks on them. Those are still there to some extent on the male (assuming I'm right about him being a him) and not much on the female. But they are exploring and eating. They seem to stay at the bottom. Is that their normal stratum? When I sit in front of the tank they come right over and look me straight in the face. Both of them. They are very very personable -- already.
I'll try to get some pics and post them. I'm very excited to have them and I hope I've done the right thing in bringing just two.
As soon as I can post pics I'll be interested to hear what you have to say.
I went to the lfs and I guess my memory was wrong...they had 5 BRs. Actually, I think I'm just too short. The tank was above my eye level and on the first day I was there I didn't see a ladder. So I couldn't see everybody in there.
On the second visit I did see a ladder. So up I went.
I looked for a long time at the residents of the tank. After looking at the pics on your other forum I could tell they were young -- no suprise there in a fish store. And I came to the conclusion that there were 4 males and 1 female in the tank. One clue was the fact that one fish (the one I decided was female) was being kept at one side of the tank and was being escorted by one other fish who was making it quite clear that no one else was welcome on that side. The other 3 fish, also males I thought, each had a section -- one seemed to "own" the top of the filter, one at the side and one in the middle. They didn't chat or hang around with each other. But every now and then one would venture over to the honeymoon side. Dorsal fins would flare, the male would dash at the intruder and then rush back to make sure the female hadn't wandered. One male seemed pretty intent on trying to crash the party. He did finally succeed in swapping places. The other males remained in their places. I went away for awhile and when I came back the same male was together with the female.
So I felt like I would be bringing home a pair that had shown their willingness to be together and I bought those two.
Since bringing them home they have been exploring the tank, side by side for the most part but not always. From time to time one goes over and kind of "kisses" the other one. I know it's anthropomorphism to say that, but I don't know another way to describe it. Sort of like touching base. Not aggressive, just "checking in".
When I first brought them home they both had a lot of smudgy stress marks on them. Those are still there to some extent on the male (assuming I'm right about him being a him) and not much on the female. But they are exploring and eating. They seem to stay at the bottom. Is that their normal stratum? When I sit in front of the tank they come right over and look me straight in the face. Both of them. They are very very personable -- already.
I'll try to get some pics and post them. I'm very excited to have them and I hope I've done the right thing in bringing just two.
As soon as I can post pics I'll be interested to hear what you have to say.
Hey Blairo..thanks for the pictures.
I was able to use them to determine the sex of some Bolivian rams I have in my 75.
I thought they were female (vent tubes)
but they have characteristics similar to males.. I have 2 known males.. I had to move one as he was not getting along with another male I have in a 30.
I placed him in with these 2 females..they are as large as he is..he does have the pectorals of a typical male and the tips on his tail. the females show some f these characteristics(not quite as dominant) their size is what kept me thinking they were males tho they have definite female tubes.
finally the male after several months may have found his mate..
those of you thinking about Bolivians..make the leap...they are well worth it.
I was able to use them to determine the sex of some Bolivian rams I have in my 75.
I thought they were female (vent tubes)
but they have characteristics similar to males.. I have 2 known males.. I had to move one as he was not getting along with another male I have in a 30.
I placed him in with these 2 females..they are as large as he is..he does have the pectorals of a typical male and the tips on his tail. the females show some f these characteristics(not quite as dominant) their size is what kept me thinking they were males tho they have definite female tubes.
finally the male after several months may have found his mate..
those of you thinking about Bolivians..make the leap...they are well worth it.
Here are pics of the two new B. Rams. The lightest one is the one I think is the female, the smudgier one (and harder to photograph) is the one I think is the male. I'll keep trying to get better pictures, but they seem to be very wary of the camera. They were normally out and about but ran to the back of the tank when they saw the camera.
oh...and one 'cat' fish.
oh...and one 'cat' fish.
