Salt!

Kasakato said:
Regardless Im going to an experment this winter. Ill get a 5g, SG prob, TDS, temp, test kit, and anything else my mom has at her work. (Shes the lead test person at Nestle). We will see if the fish with or with out salt does better.
Sorry Kas, but I think if there are negative effects of salt, it won't come out in a short time. If you are going to experament/ research you will need years. I'm going to guess that lifespan will be the most notable issue here. Go ahead and try but be prepaired for a long term project and not something you will see in a few months time. Make sure to keep a very detailed log of your efforts, but again it will be quite a while till we get accurate info from your experaments. I can agree that salt is not needed so why use it? But other than that I have noevidence at current to say why not use it?

:laugh: Bob did you really say some folks are too stuborn to try anything new? :sim: C'mon folks, at least he's honnest!!!!
 
Kas,
You have now painted yourself into a corner, and this is good. you can win this argument with good verifiable science, but you will need to do your research accomplish that task. I'm looking forward to a really good article with a lot of clear correct information.

Everyone else, Lets see if anyone can come up with one single real argument in favor of long term NACL use in a freshwater tank. Feel free to pm me, as this thread is far out of control. Show me your science, or if you have none, send me what you've heard or believe and I'll address it one item at a time. this thread pretty much containes most of the arguments I have heard, but I'm sure new ones can be invented if you use your imagination some more. There are a few true facts scattered here and there throughout all pertaining to salt use as a medication for specified illnesses nothing to justify long term use, There has not been one thing here that would show a need to add high levels of NACL to a tank long term. Set your personal opinion and misconceptions aside and put your science where your mouth is.

And BTW, my fish always seem happier after I add black pepper to my tank, and we all know salt and pepper are both requirements for fish right??? :D

O.K time for lunch
dave
 
daveedka said:
Kas,
And BTW, my fish always seem happier after I add black pepper to my tank, and we all know salt and pepper are both requirements for fish right??? :D

dave

Finally..someone who knows what they are talking about..I too use pepper, along with the salt, and i also use garlic...the effects are enhanced when the temperature in the tank is increased to approximately 212 degrees...this seems to place the fish in a very stable state....now I'm hungry....
 
Just to back up daveedka's recent comments - my trials on F-8 puffers ran over 20 years, and occupied up to a dozen and a half tanks. BTW, that did include salt/NaCl, which helped them not at all long term.
 
Kasakato said:
My heard hurts. Ill need to do some tests, research my butt off, and see what I can come up with. But for now home work time!
Yo, i'm going to suggest researching academic journals from large university websites. A lot of it will sound like gibberish, but those are far more reliable than a lot of books and google searches.
Try the university i go to.
http://www.lib.sfu.ca/researchtools/databases/dbofdb.htm?Display=List
A lot is access restricted, but you can give it a try.
 
YoFishboy said:
When researching on the internet, you get a wide variety of opinions regarding the use of salt in freshwater tanks – some are outright negative, some are glowingly positive, and the vast majority are in the range of indifference about the addition of salt to using salt for specific purposes, such as a tonic or an aid for some diseases (such as ich). In my opinion, I believe that the wide range of opinions regarding the use of salt with freshwater fish is do to the lack of any real hard evidence as to whether it really is detrimental or helpful, which is often the case for many fish keeping theories. And that is why we have had so many debates about this point on AC, complete with personal attacks that add nothing and belittle us all.

In the 37 years I have kept fish, I have used salt from time to time for various reasons. While I have never had any bad experiences using salt, I cannot unequivocally state one way or another whether its use was overly beneficial. In the end, I believe regular, substantial water changes will accomplish many of the goals in which people use salt in the first place. Most of our fish in the wild will never be in the same water twice – the rivers flow, and most lakes have at least some tidal movement or upwelling that circulates the waters, as well as the influx and outflow from rivers. Why should we let our aquariums stay full of “stale” water, filling with organic compounds, nitrates, etc. Keep the water moving. I personally believe this will prevent the lion’s share of the diseases we deal with and provide the “tonic” our fish need. After all, how many of us have spawnings immediately after water changes, or see marked improvement in eating, coloration, activity, etc. If I add anything extra, it is in the form of trace elements or water conditioners that make my water more similar to that which my fish originally came from.

Per the “Facts on File Dictionary of Marine Science”, 1988, brackish water is define as “water that contains too much salt to be drinkable…but not enough to be salt water. Its average salt content ranges between about .5 to 1.7%.” The average salt content of all the worlds oceans is 3.5%. So for the most part, brackish water is closer to fresh water than it is to salt water.

I enjoy the time I have spent on AC – the friendships, the information, the silliness at times (Smilie Wars!). I have gleaned a lot of great information, and I have seen a lot of silly nonsense. I believe we are all intelligent enough to sort it out on our own, and personal attacks or rigid attitudes don’t help. When I post, I only post about something I have DIRECTLY experienced or have been told IN PERSON by someone who is a REAL expert in the field, such as world renown breeders, authors, researchers, etc. If someone has already posted exactly what I was going to say, I don’t post. What’s the point? A high post count? It’s meaningless. Threads too often become flame wars because we take ourselves too seriously – kind of like in real life. Lets respect our differences of opinions, and try not to constantly point out the “flaws” in someone else’s ideas, tank stocking, spelling…what have you. That’s called intolerance…. and we can all see where that gets us in the “Real World”. Happy posting everyone!

The smartest thing said on this whole thread!

Kasakato said:
Post war is over. I win, or well the mods do. The End.

And if this thread was about a post war, what a waste bandwidth and everyone's time.

I suppose nothing can replace the knowledge and the experience gained from years of fish keeping from people like RTR and the likes.

For everyone who went through the pain of reading this thread ,I hope you take what was written in a lot of the posts with a grain of salt. Fogive the pun. :)
 
The negative long term effects are related to increased TDS for fish which can adapt to higher TDS water without difficulty short-term, but it is extra metabolic work for them long-term, coupled with the major difficulty of measuring NaCl in FW at relatively low concentrations. You have no easy test other than TDS for what your water is doing, as it shows not at all on the standard hobby tests.

There are many fish which are highly succeptible to Ich, mollies are just one (Clown loaches are the most IME, followed by Tiger Barbs).

There is no justification for using salt for high-nitrate water changes. In OTS situations, care is needed to avoid osmotic shock, but substituting salt as an unmeasurable osmotic agent is not just poor, it is potentially every bit as damaging as the OTS situation and quite similar to it.

Humans cannot taste salt in water below low brackish concentrations. The implication that the lack our ability to detect the salt means it would be harmless to the fish is also absurd, totally without rational basis. We cannot taste puffer toxin either, that in no way means that it is harmless.

The statement that salt improves gill function is also without basis.

The statement that salt improves the efficacy of meds is equally absurd. Any statement of that broad nature is highly suspect.

In short, that poster was posing as someone with knowledge of physiology and pharmacolgy which is, on the face of it, simply without any basis in fact.

That is not an uncommon situation, but is a sad one.
 
AquariaCentral.com