same old discus song

[crows4hire]

Can someone please tell me what I am doing wrong? All I manage to do is kill a discus every few months. They come in, they get used to the tank, they thrive for a month or two and then inexplicably they stress, stop eating and die over a period of a week or two. The tank in question is a 30 gallon moderatly planted tank with a discus (4 inch), 10 cardinal tetras, two loaches, 1 bristle nosed pleco, a few ocats and about 6 amano shrimp. Whater parameters are thus:

Temp: 86 F
ammonia:0, Nitrates:0, Nitrites:0, Ph 7.4, GH:12, KH:8
The tank filter utilizes a bag of peat moss.
There is DIY C02 in the tank that I keep running very consistently. The water flow is reasonable, there is plenty of places to hide. I do bi-weekly water changes of about 40%. The new water is pre-treated with Tap Conditioner and dosed at a level to break the chloramine bond per the label instructions. The water is also dosed with AmmoLock to deal with the free ammmonia that results from the chloramine decomposition. I dose the tank with Excel Nitrogen twice weekly and Excel plant Supplement daily (dosed for daily treatment) Fish are fed twice daily. Flake in the morning and either brine shrimp or blood worms at night. Whew.. I think that does it.

Now having said all this, what the heck is going on??? All the other fish and plants are thriving. Anyone tell me what I am doing wrong? Please help, I am so frustrated.

 

[Inka4040]

What kind of loaches? If a discus's tankmates are too active, after a while they often put off their food and its difficult to coax them back into eating. Sorry I can't give you more info. Best of luck with your current discus.

 

[evelyn80]

mabye PH is a little high? i heard discus prefer lower Ph. dont take my word for it though i dont know much about em:headshake2:

 

[duffer]

Discus are shoaling fish and do best in groups of 6 or more. They get easily stressed when you just have a few discus in a tank(unless you have a mated pair). Your 30 gallon tank is just too small for a group of discus. It's best to have 1 adult discus per 10 gallons of water. A single discus in an aquarium will eventually get stressed out to the point where it gets sick and will eventually die. It's also best to keep discus in acidic water. Don't be frustrated with discus. Just know you need a much bigger tank with a group of discus to do well.

 

[wataugachicken]

I agree on some of the above points:

Discus should be kept in groups
Your tank is too small to keep a group of discus
Loaches could be causing stress

on the other hand:
the pH is not an issue unless these are wild caught fish.
ten gallons per adult discus would be a very low-range estimate, and it couldn't include any other fish in the tank.

other thoughts -

why aren't you quarantining the new discus? so far you have only lost them, but it's completely possible that one day one will come in with a bug that infects or kills all your other fish, or an illness whose treatment means the loss of your plants.

what filter are you running?
exactly what is the name of the tap water conditioner? you shouldn't need to use a conditioner and Ammo-Lock as well. How often do you test the water and see a reading for ammonia?

 

[crows4hire]

Thank you for all your comments. To begin with, I am using API Tap Water Conditioner, which has no ammonia neutralizing agent. My local water supply uses chloramine to condition our water, so I take steps to combat this. My (limited) understanding of water chemistry in these cases states that when the chloramine is broken down you are left with ammonia which must be dealt with. I do not ever have an ammonia reading in the tank and honestly, I have never tested the pre-conditioned water for it... I always assumed I needed both products as per the label instructions. Am I right in my thinking here? Please let me know!

The filter is a 3 chamber sump... the tank is actually a bio-cube. I use it with a smaller power head then stock and a floss only filter. The water flows over bioballs, very course gravel and a bag of peat.

I shoukd be holding all new tank additions in quarentene, I just do not have one available now... yes I know I am begging for trouble. Two tanks are the breaks in apartment living!

 

[Cory Keeper]

Look, it took me a year to learn my lesson, but I learned it the really hard way. Whatever you do, QT new fish, always, ASAP. I lost 5 fish (4 bettas, 1 cory) by not having a QT handy.

My view has changed as its not a matter of IF, its a matter of WHEN.

If space is limited, build a stand, but one right under the other. I've got a 29g show tank, and a 10g QT right below it.

 

[Draal5]

From what I am reading you are trying to keep just 2 discus. That will NEVER work the dominant one will always stress and kill the other.

as stated above you would need a much bigger tank and a min of 5 discus so that the aggression is spread out.

You need to be satisfied with just one discus.

which if well cared for will live a long life.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

A lot of not so accurate information above I think. let me start by saying I have kept two adult discus in a 25 gal. tank for some time. The current duo were supposed to be a pair but wound up being 2 females. I have kept both a pair and the current two females in the tank with no serious agression issues. The tank also houses two young adult zebra plecos. All the fish are healthy and have been for a number of years. However, I highly doubt it would work with 2 males and I would never try that.

I think your use of ammo-lock is not needed. As long as your dechlor works on both chlorine and chloramines, it is sufficient. As for your water params, the pH should not be an issue unless keeping wild fish. However, your GH looks to be a bit on the high side for them. The only reliable way to get it lower is mix ro water with your tap to lower the overall hardness some. I am not a big fan of adding peat via a bag in the filter for the reasons below:

Peat moss softens water and reduces its hardness (GH). The most effective way to soften water via peat is to aerate water for 1-2 weeks in a bucket containing peat moss. For example, get a (plastic) bucket of the appropriate size. Then, get a large quantity of peat (a gallon or more), boil it (so that it sinks), stuff it in a pillow case, and place it in the water bucket. Use an air pump to aerate it. In 1-2 weeks, the water will be softer and more acidic. Use this aged water when making partial water changes on your tank.

Peat can be bought at pet shops, but it is expensive. It is much more cost-effective to buy it in bulk at a local gardening shop. Read labels carefully! You don't want to use peat containing fertilizers or other additives.

Although some folks place peat in the filters of their tanks, the technique has a number of drawbacks. First, peat clogs easily, so adding peat isn't always effective. Second, peat can be messy and may cloud the water in your tank. Third, the exact quantity of peat needed to effectively soften your water is difficult to estimate. Using the wrong amount results in the wrong water chemistry. Finally, when doing water changes, your tank's chemistry changes when new water is added (it has the wrong properties). Over the next few days, the chemistry changes as the peat takes effect. Using aged water helps ensure that the chemistry of your tank doesn't fluctuate while doing water changes.

From http://fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html

I am not sure diy co2 can ever be managed to hold a steady pH in a tank. I have only worked with pressurized , partly because of the disadvantages of diy: the lack of fine control, the work, the potential mess and the long term costs. This could also be causing some pH fluctuation.

For the most part discus do not like much current nor bright light. Both of these can stress the fish. Personally I would not do discus in a higher light planted tank. Besides the light issue, many plants do not do well at discus temps.

I agree that loaches are not really ideal discus companions and 86 is pretty high for many loaches. If this were my tank I would have only the cardinals and the bristlenose in there. You could have corys instead of the bn, but not both.

As for diet/feeding. Discus tend to be grazers, that is they eat on and off all day long and from both the water and off the substrate/bottom. I think your cats and loaches are likely getting most of the bottom food. You also should consider a more varied diet. I feed my discus earthworm flakes, frozen and FD bloodworm, frozen mysis shrimp, FD plankton, FD whole earthworms, Hikari and NLS Discus food, staple flake. Once a week they get spirulina with garlic flake and maybe twice a month SF Bay frozen BeefHeart Plus. Some Hikari Sinking wafers and earthworm sticks are put in for the zebras but the discus probably nibble them as well.

The thing about discus is there are probably as many opinions as there are discus keepers. I have found what works for me and it may or may not be what works for you or others.

 

[crows4hire]

Wow... thank you all for your comments. I am actually only keeping one discus right now. The slap on the wrist about not quarentening new arrivals is well deserved and I know better. Thanks!

I will be happy to discontinue my ammo-lock treatment of my water... that stuff is expensive anyways... aside from which, I detest adding anything more then is absolutely essential to the water. (I went down the Ph adjustment road a few years back... anyone know that tune?)

Ok, the loaches are not loaches per se... they are in the loach family but, I am ashamed to say I do not remeber their names. In terms of being to active for discus, they have got to be the laziest fish I have ever seen! Once upon a time, they used to eat the occasional snail in the tank, but now they won't even do that... point is, based on what the comments indicate, I do not think they are a problem in this case... any thoughts?

The DIY CO2 is a royal pain in the keister and you are probably right that it is causing mild flucuations in the Ph. Bad for everyone... next month I am going to plunk down the $300 or so dollars for a tank and regulater and be done with it.

As for the grazing, I think the real culprits in the food theft department are the amano shrimp. They are far and away the most efficient "cleaning crew" I have ever owned... and these guys got BIG! Could they be part of the issue?

Final questions... the discus I have was fine, happy, healthy and active for months with never a hiccup until about a week ago. Now he is listless, very dark, shows poor eating and never comes out of hiding. This is the same old song I have with each one. Can someone tell me WHY??? I mean, I concede all of your excellent comments, and I know things are not necessarily optimal, but he was doing so well! Did he just wake up one day and decide to fade away? I would do much to save him... he doesn't act like he has a parasite, etc... he is just badly, BADLY stressed.