Some simple ich questions

loachie

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Mar 7, 2005
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I have read with great interest the article on ich by DAVEEDKA and I have a few questions.

1. Is it possible for an ich breakout to occur if you do not introduce new fish.
If yes, then where does the ich come from? (in my case I got it when I introduced new angle fish, but I am just curious)

2. Can ich live on a fish without you knowing it. Then after his immune system weakens will it come out?

3. How long after an outbreak is cured is it safe to introduce new fish. I lost my clown loach and can't wait to get another.

I am treating ich now with high heat (85 deg F and the salt treatment 1 1/2 tsp per gal in a 44 gal tank), I see one or two little white specks on one angle fishs top fin, so I'm hoping the tank should be safe in about a week.

Thanks for any help you can give me.
 
Since you have said you read the article, I'll briefly hit on each question, but these are all addressed in the article in-depth ( I think)

1. Is it possible for an ich breakout to occur if you do not introduce new fish.

Since ich hides well from the un-informed/inexperienced observer, this is possible. But it was there all of the time if it shows up

2. Can ich live on a fish without you knowing it. Then after his immune system weakens will it come out?

This is very common and honestly is the biggest reason for most ich myths.

The gills of a fish are far more vulnerable than the skin. we can't see ich on the gills. so a healthy fish will ward off ich on it's skin, but ich still continues it's life cycle via the gills unseen.

3. How long after an outbreak is cured is it safe to introduce new fish. I lost my clown loach and can't wait to get another.

In some ways the article addresses this in some ways it doesn't. The best suggestion is to get a Q-tank, buy your new fish, and keep it in the q-tank while finishing treatment on the main tank. observe the new guy for at least four weeks after the last sign of any possibility of anything wrong and then add him into the main tank which at that point has been observed for at least four weeks after the last sign of anything wrong. then you have a healthy fish entering a healthy tank and you will be much more relaxed and confident.

If a q-tank is out of the question, then wait four weeks ofter the last sign of anything wrong in your main tank, and then add the new fish. However this runs a risk of reintroducing ich, and based on the possibilities in question #1 & #2 you may not know you have ich for months or years.
dave
 
1 & 2) Yes, it can infect the gills which you would not be able to see. As long as there are fish in the tank, it can live. This is why there are so many myths about ich living in every tank. It is on a fish and you cannot see it, intro new fish that is stressed out and been handled, ich infects new fish and everyone blames the new guy!
3) It is safe to intro new fish once ich is irradicated which is why most people suggest treating a little longer "just to be sure".

Sounds like you have the treatment going well. Good luck.

:mad2 Quick draw Dave is what we should call you Dave!!! ;)
 
Dave,

thanks so much for the speedy reply.

In regards to a q-tank. If I set one up do I need to set it up completly like a new aquarium with the cycling stage, or would it be safe to use water and maybe some gravel from my main tank, or would that just introduce ich into the q-tank?
 
Yes, if you read the article a little more closely you'll find your answers, but I'll go ahead and answer them for you here as well for the sake of completion in the thread.

1. Is it possible for an ich breakout to occur if you do not introduce new fish.
If yes, then where does the ich come from? (in my case I got it when I introduced new angle fish, but I am just curious)
Yes and no (w00t, I'm still king of the ambiguous answer! but read on, it's actually no) An Ich outbreak can occur in an established tank without adding new fish. But, this is really not a new outbreak. Ich has to have a lost to live it's entire lifecycle. Ich gets a reputation like it does because a lot of hobbyists fail to notice it where it most usually first occurs, which is in the gills which are easier to infest as they do not have a slime coat. If someone never noticed this (and let's be nice, gills are hard to examine) and had an infestation for a month or two before they saw it, they might conclude Ich is always present, which is of course false. So, the answer really is no, but it sure can seem like yes sometimes because you smiply have no outward signs of it existing.
2. Can ich live on a fish without you knowing it. Then after his immune system weakens will it come out?
See above. While it is true that some fish seem resistant to Ich (especially true of fish that have shrugged it off before) and that their immune system may come into play, usually once a fish has Ich, he has it until it is cured. It may very well be the Ich the lowers the fishes defenses in the first place which leads to further infestation rather than the immune system being compromised by something else. Let's face it, if you had a lot of little parasites in your lungs, you'd find it hard to breathe and your body would go into immuno-defense mode. Same with a fish. So, Ich targest weaker defended areas that affect a fishes overall health and may be the sole cause fo the immune system weakening.
3. How long after an outbreak is cured is it safe to introduce new fish. I lost my clown loach and can't wait to get another.
Okay, I am going to go all over the place on this topic. Ich is usually gone once you've treated for an entire week with salt and elevated heat a week after the last spot falls off of the last fish that has a spot. Having said that, I would be hesitant to add certain fish into a tank that still has the level of salinity a tank treated for Ich will still have for a while. This is especially true of scaleless fish like loaches. To me it makes more sense to have done several major water changes to reduce the salt's presence in the water. Also, I want to get on my soapbox now. If you've just treated for Ich, why on earth would you intriduce a new fish into that tank unless it had been through a regular quarantine? Not saying you would, but a lot of folks do and it makes no sense to me. Quarantine tanks are easy to set up and use and when used properly, they can literally save all of your tank occupants' lives. Some people complain about the cost or the space. Neither argument holds water (pun indeed intended). Q-tanks can be a ten gallon tank or a large rubbermaid container. You can use a cheap sponge filter or make one yourself easiyl enough. Needs a heater, some clay pots for hising places, and I like plastic plants because I can bleach them, though I know plenty of folks who use live ones and remove them if treatment calls for it. A q-tank only needs to be running when you have a new or sick fish. Otherwise, keep a sponge in your main tank's filter for it to remain seeded. I always have an extra sponge in my tank. After a qurantine and teratment you can just toss it and buy a new sponge. At any rate, a q-tank is affordable (I promise it is cheaper than replacing a dozen of most breeds of fish, which is what you can lose even in 29 gallon tanks that become diseased) can be stored away out of site when not in use and can save you money on dosing meds because it is cheaper to treat 10 gallons of water than 30 gallons any day. Anyway, I'm off my soapbox now. Just remember, if you had Ich, it came from your LFS because it wasn't in your empty tanks, it came in on stock, as you know, of course.

I hope that answers your questions and best of luck to you and your remaining fish. Also, if you don;t have a quarantine tank already, look into it. ;)

EDIT: Gee, you people are faster than I was... of course, I got on my soapbox. :rolleyes:
 
In regards to a q-tank. If I set one up do I need to set it up completly like a new aquarium with the cycling stage, or would it be safe to use water and maybe some gravel from my main tank, or would that just introduce ich into the q-tank?

Lets just say the risk would be very high of transfer with an active outbreak in your tank. You could set up the q-tank, transfer some media spike it with ammonia, salt and 87*F temp and be safe in 3-4 days. Do a water change, reduce to normal temps, and get your loach. The ammonia would keep the bacteria fed during treatment and if anything enhance the high speed cycle process. then you could still jump start the quarantine process while finishing of treatment and observation in the other tank. Since any ich that you trnsfer would be without a host, the time it takes to make sure it's dead is reduced phenominally, no risk of missing the last few cysts on the fish etc.

Dave
 
Hi Everyone.. I am Steve, a co worker of Lochie (used to have fish). I have to tell you how impressed I am with the level of expertise on this board... We didn't have 'boards' when I had fish and you were stuick with asking fish store personal who didn't always have the correct answer. I was 'taught' ICH was always there and am fascinated by the 'new' info learned here.

Keep up the great work you all are doing.... I am seriously thinking about setting up another tank.... may be back later.

Have a Great day !

Steve
 
Then if one quarentines new fish, it is still possible for him to carry ich, but not show signs, or have a breakout until in the big tank? Then something causes the stress that finally does break it out in him?

My 45g tank has been set up for several months, it was seeded and cycled quickly , and water is checked & re checked, temp 79 and stable, nothing has changed in last 6 weeks, (I had added a new 2 month quarantined fish then), not overstocked, I watch them everyday and don't see any aggression, or reason for stress, yet just now I have, almost overnight, a major ich outbreak. I also am treating with salt, and raising temp, but can't figure out what caused it.

Either way, if it can sit in gills somewhat dormant that long in quarentine, or survive cycling, than pop up now months later, than quarantining was not helping (in regards to ich only of course)... BTW getting differing opinions from the web on how high to raise the temp. It is at 82 now...
KathyW
 
lillibirdy said:
Either way, if it can sit in gills somewhat dormant that long in quarentine, or survive cycling, than pop up now months later, than quarantining was not helping (in regards to ich only of course)... BTW getting differing opinions from the web on how high to raise the temp. It is at 82 now...
KathyW
Well, dormant is really not an appropriate word here. The Ich was active and working and living it's regular life cycle, it's just that you didn't see it. Ich really has no true dormant stage where it sits inactive for a period of months. Ich shouldn't survive a cycle even, if the cycle lasts more than two weeks, there is no host and it simply dies. The real problem with Ich comes in "clinical" diagnosis. As stated before and correctly by you, it can remain "invisible" in the gills. This has spawned certain aquarists to treat for Ich in a Q-tank as a Prophylactic measure. Obviously there is a great debate over treating fish for parasites, infections, bacteria and disease they may not even have. It would certainly be effective, but it can cause quarantined fish undue sterss and even lead to death to give them a "shotgun" treatment in quarantine. For now, the best thing seems to be watching the qurantined fish very closely for at least 30 days and anytime something dubious occurs, setting back that quarantine clock for the full 30 days after the problem is cured. You cannot prevent ALL ailments for fish, even in well-established, cycled, mature tanks. Quarantine tanks are a preventitive measure, not a full proof guarantee. It does, however, lengthen your odds, and that's well worth it to me.
 
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