Some simple ich questions

[lillibirdy]

Yea, I knew dormant wasn't the correct word to use. But it was like it was just sitting silently, in someones gills waiting for stress to bust out...lol.

I cycled the big tank with fish, and seeded it, and used bio spira, so was a short easy cycle, but still you would think if any of the fish in that tank had it, they would have come down with it thru the cycle stress. And the other fish I added 6 wks ago, was alone in a ten gallon QT for two months, while it cycled...if he was the one with it, why didn't he get it during his cycle?

(BTW I have a beta living in the ten g QT right now, in case I need it, then it will already be cycled, I can temporarily move the beta to my filtered 5 gallon).

Wierd, sneaky stuff this ich.
KathyW

 

[daveedka]

The trick with sub clinical infections on the gills is the observation. When fish flash or scratch, something is wrong. I am learning more and more, and some of it the hard way, that fish don't flash unless something is amiss. Each time I convince myself that the flashing I saw was just my fish being wierd, I find out later that it was in fact something that would eventually lead to bigger problems. I know my tanks are in fact ich free. I made them that way and am religious about them staying that way. But my guppies still flash, there are some possibilities, and I am pretty close to a diagnosis, but not sure enough to start treatment yet. To put it in persperctive, my male guppy has probably only flashed 10 times in the 8 months since his birth. When the tank gets crowded I usually see some of the other fish flashing, and when I reduce population it reduces the flashing. but seldom does a week go by that I don't see at least one fish flash once or twice. The issue is most likely gill flukes from everything I've read. ICH is eliminated Oodinium (velvet) is usually visible at night with a flashlight and it is also brutally quick once it breaks out. So one by one I am working through the possible parasites and eliminating what I can. Once I understand Flukes and treat accordingly, then if I see another flash I will look for another possibility. The crux of the matter is nothing will go in or out of that tank to the other tanks until I'm sure it's safe.

As far as the temp reccomendations changing and being arbitrary. It takes 86*F to kill ich, any elevation in temp will speed up the life cycle and help with treatment. I personally don't turn my temps up to 86*, but rather keep them around 82 when treating. but I am relying on the salt not the temp to kill the ich, and using the temp to accellerate ich into my little salt trap so to speak. Even if you take the tank temp to 86* the chance of the entire tank being that warm all of the time is slim so it turns into a personal choice of how high to actually take the temp. And as long as you understand the time factor vs the temp factors you can treat ich at any temperature.
Dave

 

[JosephMCorbett]

This is exactly what I was going to post a question about. I had an Ich outbreak about 3 weeks ago, just after restocking my 55. During this time I have been setting up a 125. I didn't want to move the fish until I finished treating for Ich. From Daveedka's article I slowly added salt to the 55 up to 2+ tsp./gal. over the period of about 5 days. I didn't want to put the temp. higher than 80, so I figured I would treat longer. Salt remained at 2+ for just over a week. Then slowly took the salt back down below 1 tsp./gal. and I'm still removing it with water changes. I'm currently at about .3 tsp/gal. Yesterday, I moved everyone to the 125 except the Platys and a few Tetras to keep my cycle in the 55. I'm planning to use the 55 as a QT in order to stock the 125. I don't want to have to deal with Ich anymore especially now in the 125. However, I couldn't put it any better then lillibirdy - if it can go unnoticed in the QT and then break out an infect everyone in the main tank...why QT? Or, as Harlock mentions, perhaps I should just treat for Ich in the QT tank regardless if I see it or not. I am also having the same problems that Daveedka mentions. Even though I had salt in the water at 1+ tsp./gal. for over two weeks and during this two week stint it was as high as 2.3 tsp./gal for a few days and 2 tsp./gal. for a week, I still see fish flash! It's only occasional and it's only on one piece of decor...my loach likes to flash on this resin stump that I have. One thought - is it possible that fish "itch" just as every creature under the sun does???

 

[daveedka]

One thought - is it possible that fish "itch" just as every creature under the sun does???

Anything is possible especially with loaches

The one thing that always throws a wrench in the flashing idea is the possibility of ammonia burn. It is permantent, so if the fish you bought eer was exposed to high ammonia levels and lived through it, then it is possible that that fish will flash. It would be nice if we could stick the fish under a microscope and see what's on their gills.

Almost any parasite will hit the gills simply because of their vulnerability. As I read up on flukes, I'm finding out they are really a mild parasite in small numbers, and usually remoin in small numbers. Unless a tank is heavily crowded (my guppy tank) particular fish are constantly under stress (female guppies being chased), or some other factor comes into play. Flukes stay in small numbers. If flukes get bad they tend to weaken a fish and injure a fish which allows for bacterial and fungal infections to take over ( the two female guppies I lost recently). They are also very hard on fry (something close to impossible to tell in a guppy tank) and so on. The nice thing about Flukes (if it can be put that way) is that there is a medication that will kill them without being harsh to your fish, and without injuring plants. I am about to find out if it kills snails, as the guppy tank will probably be treated this weekend. Fluke tabs are harsh, but effective. Praziquantel is not harsh, but it's expensive and hard to find in small quantities. Either way I'll be getting some and "testing" it. I'm about ready to buy a microscope as well.

I still see fish flash!

Honestly, the more I learn the more I think that if the fish are still flashing, it isn't wise to put them in your show tank. Although I am not a big promoter of prophylactic (sp) treatment. I would go through the ich treatment, Praziquantel, and Metrodozinal. Then if they still flash I'd look for velvet with a flashlight. Then watch them for several more weeks just because. It may be all wasted effort but you are looking a ten+ years with those fish if you can ensure a healthy tank for them. a couple extra months at the start isn't a lot of time.
Dave