Sooo... My plants aren't growing... and I have no idea why.
- Thread starter red_wall
- Start date
yes, thanks I read it. Nothing in that thread says/proves allelopathy doesnt exist or that it doesnt affect other plants in the aquarium. Not even Toms'.
There's no reason to assume all the allel. chems are the same per species. And just like hormones and other such in animals, these things are often released according to environmental conditions, like "stress".
Also doesnt mean more than one plant in the aq arent releasing them with competing results. They could be. Sounds like we dont know that much, but that they do exist.
Like I said, aq plants wouldnt have evolved these chemicals if they didnt work. Few natural bodies of water are stagnant...water changes would have only some affect.
The likelihood of some plants releasing allel. chems that inhibit other plants is probably pretty high under certain conditions. In many cases, I'd say our plant and fishkeeping practices overcome it. I certainly wouldnt dismiss the affects as non-existent or even neglible tho...esp when someone is having trouble.
i disagree (obviously)... the one thing that is highly noted when pertaining to allelopathy is the idea that valisneria sp. and sagitaria sp. cannot be housed in the same aquarium. kurtis noted taking out bunches that were intertwined... myth busted.
i have looked into it myself. i am not going to do the research again for someone else's sake of argument. we can come to terms that we disagree, you can look up more than that little example or you can ask tom barr yourself. i'm sure that if you delve deep enough into the research you'll come to the same conclusion. searching posts by username plantbrain for allelopathy or allelochemicals on this site or either of those 2 words on barrreport.com wouldn't be a bad place to start.
mind you, i've read ecology of the planted tank and cross referenced allelopathy and allelochemicals in the past. like i said... npt style, maybe... normal aquarium with filters that need cleaning and necessary w/c's... nope, not buying it.
i have looked into it myself. i am not going to do the research again for someone else's sake of argument. we can come to terms that we disagree, you can look up more than that little example or you can ask tom barr yourself. i'm sure that if you delve deep enough into the research you'll come to the same conclusion. searching posts by username plantbrain for allelopathy or allelochemicals on this site or either of those 2 words on barrreport.com wouldn't be a bad place to start.
mind you, i've read ecology of the planted tank and cross referenced allelopathy and allelochemicals in the past. like i said... npt style, maybe... normal aquarium with filters that need cleaning and necessary w/c's... nope, not buying it.
It's a discussion...that's why *I'm* here anyway.
I also wouldnt buy into the sag/val thing as evidence of anything.
My background is bio. I didnt see you rebutting any of my statements, just disagreeing. I tried to support my view.
As I said, I read Tom's posts. He's right....carbon in the filter should remove the chemicals. So would water changes. And that might only mean that the plant in question would create MORE of the chem to make up for the removal. That chemical is a defense.....the plant produces it for a reason. Just depends on the reason for releasing it? Too many competitors in a close space? Poor/unsuitable water conditions leading to stress? About to flower?
Biology is a 'big picture' thing.
Like I said, very possible. We just manage our tanks to overcome most of this. Not even quite sure what you are arguing? You seem unsure if it exists, but then are happy to deny any affects if they do.
I think a discussion could reveal more. Never know when something will click with someone, or it might end up being the reason for someones lack of success.
yes, this is an argument, disagreement, discussion, etc.. we disagree and are making points in rebuttal or refuting each others claims. the quote above is basically where it all started. that quote and another response you had afterward suggests you think i or we should be focusing on allelopathy as well as the other points made in this thread in reference to the op's issues. i, following the teachings of other more experienced, acclaimed and educated aquarists am giving a plain out NO to whether or not that could even possibly be an issue in this case. i am not saying i don't understand it or would like or need to know more about it. as a matter of fact i've stated that i've done the reading and research to come to a conclusion that i won't have to worry about it in my aquarium so there'll be no need to pick plants according to their allelopathic properties or compatibilities related to such chemicals. my interest in this forum and aquatic plants stems from my fish tanks. whether or not allelochemicals exist or work in the wild are basically of no interest to me. nor will that information have any bearing on what's going on in the op's tank so long as we know it's not an issue likely to be dealt with in an aquarium with normal maintenance procedures.
on the note of them being washed away or diluted in the wild... think about that statement for a minute. plants don't exactly grow in the depths/channels of rivers where the water is constantly flowing nor is it likely you won't find huge patches of a single species where they've rooted themselves. there are also swamp plants, pond and lake plants... but they're usually accompanied by a large mass of the same species... not one lowly patch of plants like we keep in our aquariums. the likelyhood of such chemicals (that we know exist and work) working in such situations is far greater with the numbers we'd find gathered together in a group in the wild. not only that, but have you ever stood in a patch of plants on the side of a river and took a step past that patch and noticed an immediate increase in current? i have. all that mass would certainly slow the flow of water, possibly to the point that the large patch of plants could produce enough chemicals to prevent other species from getting started in that particular area.
will allelopathy be an issue in the op's tank with his current stock? NO, and that is definitely my final answer. i also believe that is the topic at hand (making the op's plants grow) and that this issue/topic (allelopathy) is now hijacking his thread.
sorry red_wall.
Originally Posted by SidtheMonkey 
"Sometimes, some plants give off chemicals, like phermones, that inhibit other plants growing. So some plants dont do well in the same tanks with others."
Your view is a bit limited re: where aquatic plants occur and their in and outflow of fresh water. Ponds and lakes often have a great deal of turnover...and marshes & swamps also have currents and flow. Have you ever studied hydrology and/or pond ecology?
The 'layer' in the aquascape where plants grow has to do with many factors, not just allelopathy or current. All plants have evolved to exploit certain niches...in many ways. Your comments on chemicals & currents are a bit out there...but at least you are trying to look beyond what you have already read.
IMO allelopathy exists in our aquarium environs....but is likely controlled by our husbanding & maint efforts. And that when tank parameters change or plant competition ramps up, such stresses may trigger releases of the chemicals.
Having had many planted tanks in the past, I wouldnt say allelopathy had much affect at all in the overall success of plant growth, but of course there were a few plants that did poorly and no reason apparent. So maybe....
Again, when people are struggling to understand a problem with their plants, I wouldnt discount it when other criteria dont fit.
"Sometimes, some plants give off chemicals, like phermones, that inhibit other plants growing. So some plants dont do well in the same tanks with others."
Well I agree that it is not the issue for this aquarist...but wouldnt rule it out. But my initial statement (above, bold) stands, and it was a further exploration.
Your view is a bit limited re: where aquatic plants occur and their in and outflow of fresh water. Ponds and lakes often have a great deal of turnover...and marshes & swamps also have currents and flow. Have you ever studied hydrology and/or pond ecology?
The 'layer' in the aquascape where plants grow has to do with many factors, not just allelopathy or current. All plants have evolved to exploit certain niches...in many ways. Your comments on chemicals & currents are a bit out there...but at least you are trying to look beyond what you have already read.
IMO allelopathy exists in our aquarium environs....but is likely controlled by our husbanding & maint efforts. And that when tank parameters change or plant competition ramps up, such stresses may trigger releases of the chemicals.
Having had many planted tanks in the past, I wouldnt say allelopathy had much affect at all in the overall success of plant growth, but of course there were a few plants that did poorly and no reason apparent. So maybe....
Again, when people are struggling to understand a problem with their plants, I wouldnt discount it when other criteria dont fit.
i would when every plant in the tank has ceased to increase in mass... certainly a plant wouldn't release alellochemicals that stops itself from growing...
plus there are already known issues to address before we blindly venture into the unknown, guessing games, speculation, etc..
plus there are already known issues to address before we blindly venture into the unknown, guessing games, speculation, etc..
