Starting Back Up Again...Questions About Using Seachem Stability

[Kaskade10729]

Guys, I really don't understand what I'm supposed to be doing or looking for here...

I provided the test results -- which indicated that, at this stage, ammonia and nitrite are both at 0 (isn't that where they should be?) -- and already stated we are in the midst of using the Seachem product (so while I appreciate the assistance, I don't understand why I'm still being told I should be using a different product from Tetra or others; I like the Seachem products and am going to stick with them).

What I would like to know is if it is safe to, say, introduce some starter fish tomorrow, while the Stability is still being used in the tank (Tuesday will be a week), and perhaps add some Prime before they go in...

Then, when would I begin water changes?

 

[Kaskade10729]

I guess at this point I'll just stick to Seachem's instructions they shared via email.

 

[the loach]

Don't get another product. The sudden endorsement of another product because it is patented seems more like a promotion rather as advice. I have never used Stability so I have no opinion whether it is good or not, but the fact is that if there are nitrifying bacteria present (strain irrelevant) the added ammonia will end up as nitrate, and that doesn't show up on your test (yet), so it isn't cycled.

 

[Kaskade10729]

Don't get another product. The sudden endorsement of another product because it is patented seems more like a promotion rather as advice.

Thanks, Loach; these were my feelings as well when I read that...

I have never used Stability so I have no opinion whether it is good or not, but the fact is that if there are nitrifying bacteria present (strain irrelevant) the added ammonia will end up as nitrate, and that doesn't show up on your test (yet), so it isn't cycled.

Alright; but being that the instructions of the Stability and Seachem themselves assured me marine life could be introduced at any time during the seven-day treatment period, would it be alright to introduce fish over the next day or so? This is, according to Seachem, supposed to help the cycling process along, being that the fish would produce ammonia via waste, food, etc.

Once the seventh day of Stability is completed, when do I begin water changes on the tank regularly?

 

[the loach]

So you're not adding ammonia? We normally always recommended a fishless cycle here with ammonia, so no fish can be hurt and no starter fish are needed. Bottled bacteria products speed up the cycle, but as I wrote you still have to test to verify. Use this calculator to see how much ammonia to add: http://spec-tanks.com/ammonia-calculator-aquariums/ and keep testing. when ammonia and nitrite are 0 and the nitrate start showing up the tank is cycled and you can add fish.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

When one speaks from a position of apparently having little knowledge of the subject at hand, they may try to insinuate something about me. But then you may have to be prepared to get your foot out of your mouth in public. I do not post things about which I am not pretty well educated and well informed. I will await your response T the loach . But first read everything below and educate yourself and then fee free to post your own scientific references which refute anything below. I do not care if you apologize for your insinuation or not. But hopefully, you will come away having learned a lot.

I do not expect most hobbyists to get through everything below. You have to be a bit of a "nut" to make the commitment to spend the time required. I am that "nutty." But I feel compelled to defend myself. So, I will explain it again. When a tank is cycled, there will be specific strains of bacteria and/or Archaea present. For ammonia it will be Nitrosomas marina-like strains and for nitrite is will be the Nitrospira.

Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria
Paul C. Burrell, Carol M. Phalen, Timothy A. Hovanec
Applied and Environmental Microbiology Dec 2001, 67 (12) 5791-5800; DOI: 10.1128/AEM.67.12.5791-5800.2001

Abstract
Culture enrichments and culture-independent molecular methods were employed to identify and confirm the presence of novel ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) in nitrifying freshwater aquaria. Reactors were seeded with biomass from freshwater nitrifying systems and enriched for AOB under various conditions of ammonia concentration...........
Enrichments containing the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain were most efficient at accelerating ammonia oxidation in newly established aquaria. Furthermore, if the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in the original enrichment, even one with other AOB, only the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in aquaria after nitrification was established.

Read the entire paper here https://aem.asm.org/content/67/12/5791.full

About 4 years later it was discovered (in a large salt water tank in a public aquarium) that another micro-organism from another domain the and the was able to convert ammonia to nitrite. It has since been determined that these strains of Archaea dominate in the oceans and may be found both in soil and fresh water. You can read that paper here:
Isolation of an autotrophic ammonia-oxidizing marine archaeon

Archaea constitute a domain of single-celled organisms. These microorganisms lack cell nuclei and are therefore prokaryotes. Archaea were initially classified as bacteria, receiving the name archaebacteria, but this classification is obsolete.

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaea

More recently it was discovered that Nitrospira can process ammonia to nitrate on its own. You can read the paper about this here:
Complete nitrification by Nitrospira bacteria
Holger Daims, Elena V. Lebedeva, Petra Pjevac, Ping Han, Craig Herbold, Mads Albertsen, Nico Jehmlich, Marton Palatinszky, Julia Vierheilig, Alexandr Bulaev, Rasmus H. Kirkegaard, Martin von Bergen, Thomas Rattei, Bernd Bendinger, Per H. Nielsen & Michael Wagner
Nature volume 528, pages504–509(2015)
from https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16461/#citeas

Next, it is not the nitrite oxidizing Nitrospira which are patented, it is the probes which are required to detect them. And yes , I have read the patent filing as well as this paper. You can read the entire Patent filing here: Method for detecting bacterial nitrite oxidizer

Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria
Timothy A. Hovanec, Lance T. Taylor, Andrew Blakis, Edward F. Delong
Applied and Environmental Microbiology Jan 1998, 64 (1) 258-264; DOI: 10.1128/AEM.64.1.258-264.1998

ABSTRACT
Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the α subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to other members of the genus Nitrospira.........
In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.

from https://aem.asm.org/content/64/1/258.full

Between the two papers on the ammonia and nitrite oxidizers you will bit there are six names. Dr. Hovanec is on both studies and there are 2 and 3 other different scientists involved.

At the time Dr. Hovanec was working one these papers he was employed by Marineland as their Chief Science Officer, Aquaria Inc. and he ran the Marineland labs located in Moore park, CA. The info below is from March 2005.

Curriculum Vitae
Dr. Timothy A. Hovanec
Chief Science Officer
The Aquaria Group

Education:
Ph.D. 1998. Ecology, Evolution & Marine Biology. University of California, Santa Barbara. Dissertation Title: Characterization of the Nitrifying Bacteria in Aquaria and Mono Lake, California, Using Molecular Methods. 203p.

M.S. 1986. Biology, emphasis in Ecology. San Diego State University. Thesis Title: Acute Ammonia Toxicity and Ammonia Excretion of Striped Bass (Morone saxatilis). 140p.

B.S. 1978. Biology, with Distinction. San Diego State University

Patents:
U.S. Patent No. 6,207,440. Issued March 21, 2001. Bacterial Nitrite Oxidizer. Abstract: The present invention provides an isolated bacterial strain capable of oxidizing nitrite to nitrate and a method of use thereof for preventing or alleviating the accumulation of nitrite in an aqueous medium.

U.S. Patent No. 6,265,206. Issued July 24, 2001. Method of Using Bacterial Nitrite Oxidizer. Abstract: The present invention provides an isolated bacterial strain capable of oxidizing nitrite to nitrate and a method of use thereof for preventing or alleviating the accumulation of nitrite in an aqueous medium.

U.S. Patent No. 6,268,154. Issued July 31, 2001. Method for Detecting Bacterial Nitrite Oxidizer. Abstract: The present invention provides an isolated bacterial strain capable of oxidizing nitrite to nitrate and a method of use thereof for preventing or alleviating the accumulation of nitrite in an aqueous medium.
Commonwealth of Australia Patent No. 750945. Issued 21 November 2002. Bacterial nitrite oxidizer and method of use thereof.

from http://web.archive.org/web/20050307102048/http://www.marineland.com/drtims_Currvitae.asp

Marneland was eventually acquired by ‎Spectrum Brands as was Tetra. The patents were shared by Dr. Hovanec, and Marineland and their rights were what allowed Spectrum to have Tetra create Safe Start.

So, I will conclude by saying even though Dr. Hovanec and Spectrum Brands share the patens on the proves for Nitrospira, the three other researchers (Lance T. Taylor, Andrew Blakis, Edward F. Delong) on te Nitrite paper have no financial interest or ownership of the patent involved. In order to put Nitrospia into a bacterial starter product sold in the USA which contains Nitrospira as identified in the above paper, one must have probes to detect them. I also checked the bios for all three of co-author names, some are more well known researcher than Dr. Hovanec.

I have no financial interest in any of the above products and no connection to any of the names or organizations mentioned. What I know is that I have used the Dr. Tim;s One and Only product for over a decade and I can tell it works. But them I have only cycled tanks/filters with it into which I then added fish which cost as much as $5,000 into the tank almost immediately.

One more thing, Seachme knows all of the above, it is no secret, What they did decide to do is bury this older piece on their site:
Basics of Biofiltration

At the time Dr. Hocanec et. al. had not done the research above and Seachem, like everybody else, got the strains wrong. It wasn't until Dr. Hovanec's pH.D. thesis that it was shown these previous assumptions were wrong:

Comparative analysis of nitrifying bacteria associated with freshwater and marine aquaria.
T A Hovanec, E F DeLong
Applied and Environmental Microbiology Aug 1996, 62 (8) 2888-2896; DOI:

In the above paper it was discovered that the strains assumed to be in FW aquariums were not there.
https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/62/8/2888.full-text.pdf

 

[the loach]

I don't really know what any of this is supposed to prove to me or to the topic starter. Studies can't prove a negative like there are no other nitrifying bacteria species out there. The fact is nitrifying bacteria were not only out there before they were "discovered", everybody was culturing them in their filters. The patent says nothing, it is about a probe, which is a method to detect them, it does not prevent anyone from using other methods if necessary, or to bottle the same bacteria. The efficacy of any bottled bacteria product can be easily verified by anyone at home with a test kit, like the topic starter has, we will probably hear sooner or later how it went.

 

[Kaskade10729]

So you're not adding ammonia? We normally always recommended a fishless cycle here with ammonia, so no fish can be hurt and no starter fish are needed. Bottled bacteria products speed up the cycle, but as I wrote you still have to test to verify. Use this calculator to see how much ammonia to add: http://spec-tanks.com/ammonia-calculator-aquariums/ and keep testing. when ammonia and nitrite are 0 and the nitrate start showing up the tank is cycled and you can add fish.

No, we didn't add any ammonia; just the Stability. I think this is why Seachem suggested adding at least one or two fish to introduce this via their waste/food...

At any rate, I added some Prime into the tank along with today's Stability treatment, and we will pick up a couple of starter goldfish today...I'll see how that goes. We still have a couple more days of Stability treatments.

 

[the loach]

I don't see the logic in getting starter (gold)fish when you can just add household ammonia and test. Besides all the diseases goldfish can carry read this: http://injaf.org/aquarium-fish/the-goldfish-section/what-size-tank-for-goldfish/

 

[the loach]

PS:

When one speaks from a position of apparently having little knowledge of the subject at hand, they may try to insinuate something about me. But then you may have to be prepared to get your foot out of your mouth in public.

There was no insinuation as I did not think you posted it for financial gain or something, hence i wrote "it seems more like a promotion rather as advice" that is not personal but an evaluation of the post.