Staying Strong ..

[PumaWard]

IMHO adding 4ppm of ammonia is not a natural occurance and seeding the tank is the best method to assure a fully cycled tank. There is nothing worse than loading the tank with expensive specimens and watching them have problems because it appeared to be cycled.

Actually, it kind of is... it's a simulating what would occur if you completely stocked your tank.

Regaurdless of whether you seed it or not, test kits generally don't give false readings.. If 4ppm of ammonia is completed converted over night into nitrate, then the cycle is complete... whether or not you seeded. Fishless cycling without seeding is just culturing a small amount of nitrifying bacteria as opposed to a larger amount that you add when you seed. Seeding only speeds the whole process up.

I would be more afraid of using any LFS tank material... that stuff has usually seen every disease out there. Fish come and go from these tanks all the time, bring in new ones all the time. A more safe method would to see if you can find a friend with any established tank and ask if they have filter material or gravel that they would be willing to let you have.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't cycle a tank without seeding... but that's only because I'm impatient .

 

[jamzwayne]

Davey,

Dude - I hear ya. I waited it seems like forEVER for mine to finally cycle. I was were you are now...Wanna know what I did to get it to complete?

1. Added some water and "gunk" from my 10 Gallon tank.
2. Left it alone for about a week, no testing (i wanted to, but didnt), cranked the heat up to about 80 degrees.
3. Went on Vacation for 9 days, came back and the plants were growing out of the water, algae was growing and my tank was complete.

-Now I just need to add some fishies

Like bartman said....get some "goodies" from your LFS, and get a "kickstart".

I'm no expert, but what I did worked for me.

 

[DaveyGSXR]

Alright, i went to my LFS and the guy that works there told me i did everything wrong he said that i needed ammonia chloride ? and he said household ammonia will not do anything i just looked at the ammonia i put in my tank its ammonia hydroxide solution is this right or does this guy know what hes talking about ? and he told me he didnt wanna give me any bacteria from any of his tanks becasue it wont do anything but intro. bad bacteria help please before i go crazy. :mad2

 

[ChicoRaton]

i just looked at the ammonia i put in my tank its ammonia hydroxide solution is this right or does this guy know what hes talking about ?

The guy doesn't know what he's talking about... The ammonium ion is all that matters, not the other ion, although I have hear ammonium carbonate didn't work for one guy but that was just one guy.

he told me he didnt wanna give me any bacteria from any of his tanks becasue it wont do anything but intro. bad bacteria

Well if he believes all that's in his tanks is bad bacteria, don't buy any fish from him

HTH

 

[JSchmidt]

I agree... if he's concerned about giving you pathogens in the gravel or filter media, what are his fish carrying?

I also concur that he doesn't know what he's talking about with regards to the ammonia. Household ammonia, as long as it is free of detergents and perfumes (chelating agents are OK), is perfect.

This should be considered a lesson in your education that not all LFS employees (or owners, even) have the first idea what they're talking about. If you get lucky and find one who does, you're in the minority...

HTH,
Jim

 

[RTR]

As usual, the LFS staff does not disappoint - they maintain the time honored tradition of not being able to find their fanny with both hands. For cycle purposes, as already stated, the critical ion is the ammonium ion, NH4+. It matters not at all whether the source is ammonium chloride or ammonium hydroxide - both dissolve easily and totally at the concentrations we need/use, and are present only as ions - disregarding the % of ammonia which shifts to the disolved gas rather than the ionic form - and that is equal for either source material. So when the choice is ammonium chloride from a scientific supply house plus DI water plus a microgram balance for weighing it out, or clear ammonia from the discount house - which is easier?

God save us from un-informed staff. How do novices survive? At least I got addicted to all this in the era of Mom & Pop shops, and a fair number knew what they were doing.

Enough soap-box for today, you now be returned to your regularly scheduled thread. :rant:

 

[DaveyGSXR]

Ok Thanks alot guys for the help ( won't be buying my fish from this fish store ) by the way i can still cycle with out any " seeding " right ? i got a little bit of water from a freinds biowheel on his 30 gal. it wasent much and i just poured it in my tank but thats all ill prob. be getting since the pet stores where i live dont know there butts from there elbows and a normal time to be reading any nitrites will be the 4th week right ? thanks so much again iam sure my questions are repetative just need to learn = )

thanks, Davey

 

[heat]

:idea2:
Just a thought... if you want seeded material.. and live in Michigan you are welcome to get ahold of me. I've got an extra sponge insert that is all set that you can have. Plus possibly some of the natural gravel from another tank. Heck bring a bucket and I'll rinse my other tanks' sponges at the same time.
If you're not in Michigan maybe someone else on here nearer you would be willing to give you a "hand".

 

[ChicoRaton]

The water you got from the biowheel might help a little, but I'd take a big bag, and take one of his filter cartriges or sponges and put it in the bag(full of his tank water) and squeeze the sponge out until it's all murky. then close the bag, leaving some air so the bacteria don't starve of O2, and dump the gunky water in your tank and let the filter clean it up. That should get your cycle over in as little as a few days if he has a well established tank.
Good luck finding a better LFS.

Oh, and if you'd like to pay for shipping or happen to live in northern idaho I can send you all the filter gunk you want, I'm about to clean mine tomorrow.

 

[bartman]

Hi Dave,
I agree with chico and everyone else here. I have come to the conculsion this forum is the best source of information I have found anywhere.

The LFS has its reputation to protect and probably has seen its fair share of bad stuff (more so than home tanks). Their reluctance to provide the good with the bad should be commended, not discounted. Most LFS are very good. The do have product they carry and will guide you towards their products but thats salesmenship. Also they may not be the most knowlegable in certain specialty areas, like fishless cycles.

Now if you want to talk about dishonest.... There is a LFS I know of who sells his filter gunk as starter. He claims it's better than the Marineland bacteria and therefor charges more for it. I wonder what he will do this winter when it becomes available again. I dont have a problem with him selling his waste or by-products, but its his tactics I question.

The one thing we haven't talked about with seeding is plant wool. In my LFS the goldfish swim with the plants and thats why I avoided it. However, I have read many threads stating this is a great source. The point of the plant wool is not the plant but the stuff the the plant lives in that holds the bacteria.