Sump questions

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Dale W.

Formerly known as "Reefscape"
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Oct 7, 1998
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SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 08, 2002 11:51 PM
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ok, would it work if I use a water pump to pump out water into anuother tank/sump (ten gallon), then have the same brand/modle pump to pump water back into the tank? just like a sump, just with out the overflow and drilling.
I really wanna have a sump in my 55 gallon, I just have tempered glass, so I cant drill any holes..



slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 08, 2002 11:56 PM
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ill try to make this pretty simple. no you cant, as its impossible to match the flow rates of both pumps. if one wears slightly faster than the other or gets jammed you flood the room... (im going to skip over the entire head loss thing)
i doubt your entire tank is tempered, i would think only the bottom glass is. even if the entire tank is tempered, you could always buy an overflow box. they are sold for as cheap as $30...

[This message has been edited by slipknottin (edited August 08, 2002).]



SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:07 AM
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I dont understand? if I buy an overflow box, I wont have to drill a hole into my tank?! how does this work? heh, I'm a little foggy on sumps, so could to please explain this to me like a 3 year old lol.


slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:12 AM
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ok, let me try to explain all this.
usually when you have a hole drilled in your tank, you drill the hole on the back near the bottom, or on the bottom near the back. the problem with this is that the water would endlessely flow down the hole into the sump. if you lost power or the pump jammed, youd end up with no water in your main tank.

so, people make two or three sided boxes (sometimes four) that extend from the bottom to right near the top of the tank, and are larger than the holes on the back, as to block them from the tank water, then they seal these boxes to the tank with silicone. (in an acrylic tank, there usually "bonded" to the tank)

now, when you turn the sump pump on, the water flows into the tank, and the water level increases. the water will go over the top of this "box" you installed and then go through the hole in the tank down to the sump.

the beauty of this setup is that when the power goes out, or you have problems with your pump, the water will stop draining out the hole, as the water level will drop down and not overflow the box anymore.

make sense this far, or have i lost you?

[This message has been edited by slipknottin (edited August 09, 2002).]



slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:16 AM
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heres a pic of an overflow box


you can see the black box built around the hole in the bottom of the tank. you can also see how the water in the display tank is at the level you want, and the water level in the overflow box is lower.



SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:23 AM
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ok, lol I had to read that a few times.
So you would have to have a hole drilled into the tank right? the only problem with that is it is full of water lol, and It would a be a real pain to take the tank out and do that.

ahh, maybe some day I'll have a sump



SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:26 AM
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O, and thank you so much for explaining that whole thing to me Slip, you have been very helpful, keep up the good work in here, the place really has brightened up since you became mod.


slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:30 AM
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you dont need to drill a hole. thats why people like siphon overflows.
they operate on exactly the same principals as a normal (internal) overflow, but dont need the tank to be drilled.

that being said, drilling the tank is a more failproof solution, but for some people its not an option.

heres a picture of one:



the CPR overflows arent very reliable, but they illustrate how an overflow box works.

instead of having a hole drilled, overflow boxes use two mini water reservois and a u-tube connecting them. the water reservoirs are there to prevent the loss of siphon if the water level dropped on either side.

when the water level in the tank increases, the water attempts to equalize itself on both sides of the u-tube, raising the water level on the outside part of the overflow, and then going into a tube that leads to the sump.

when power is lost, the reservoirs keep the siphon from breaking, and the process can continue when the pump restarts.

your welcome for the help.

[This message has been edited by slipknottin (edited August 09, 2002).]



slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:37 AM
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anyways, ill help you out for a little while tomorrow , its 1:40 here, time for me to go sleepy.
yuk, i need to start packing tomorrow


[This message has been edited by slipknottin (edited August 09, 2002).]



SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:41 AM
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WHOO HOO, you just made my day slip, I'm going to go buy one tomorrow....ehehe, sump here I come.


SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:59 AM
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Questions for when you wake up slip
So far I will need one overflow box, any brand I should be looking for?

How many pumps would I need and how much power?

I will more them likely be running it through my spare 10 gallon tank, any idea for what media I should be adding? Keep in mind I have an African tank, so high ph is the key.

For filtration I have a penguin 125 biowheel and a topfin 60 power filter, I know I don’t really need a sump, but it’s more of a learning experience for me.

So far this is all I know, attach PVC pipe to the over flow box and run it down to the ten gallon, how would I attach it to ten gallon? From the side or through the top? have it run through a couple of media traps and then attach a pump to the other side, attach PVC pipe to the pump and run it back into my tank..Right?

Any techniques for reducing the sound?

And again slip, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOU HELP, you da man!




SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 09, 2002 01:27 AM
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I got excited and I went ahead and designed my sump, just wanted to run it by you to see if it would work..click on the SUMP! gallery.
http://community.webshots.com/user/soulkeeper_4270


slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 09, 2002 09:55 AM
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i had a huge reply writen out,and when i clicked spell check it deleted it


gleeman54
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 153
From: Dorchester, MA
Registered: JUN 2002
posted August 09, 2002 10:04 AM
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http://www.bigalsonline.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi
http://www.bigalsonline.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi
sorry, I just checked these links and they don't work.
They are for the Tidepool wet/dry sump and the sos pre-filter (overflow box). Big Als.

I've heard alot of good reviews. I am setting up a 125, hopefully Monday (waiting for carpet installation). I will be using this system along with a Fluval 404 for additional mechanical filtration.

Good luck, which ever way you choose to go.

[This message has been edited by gleeman54 (edited August 09, 2002).]



slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 09, 2002 10:12 AM
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heres the overflow box i recommend http://www.thatpetplace.com/cgi-bin/sgin0101.exe?UID=2002080911051322&T1=F32+0063+0021&TRAN85=Y&EDP=50&PRT=D
not sure if that link will work, its an amiracle overflow box from www.thatpetplace.com

it should flow approx 600 GPH. youll need only one pump, and you should find one that will flow about 500 GPH at the head height your running (how high the pump needs to push the water, all elbows add to this number also) the mag drive and the dolphin pond line are the best submersible pumps out there.

for quieting this down, put a ball valve on the line from the overflow box to the sump. close the valve slightly and it should add enough backpressure to keep it reasonably quiet.

to attach the plumbing to the 10 gallon, just run the PVC into the 10. its hard PVC, so its not going anywhere.

for your sump, the only big problem i can see is using metal screens. there is no inexpensive metal ive seen that will not rust or corrode in the water. id try to use something like a plastic screen, or even a piece of plexi with holes drilled in it.

also, remember that when running the water level in your sump will drop down. when the power shuts off, the water level will rise in the sump, as its catching all water in the tank thats above the overflow line.

to combat this, fill up the main tank, then fill the sump to the top with the power off.



SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:04 PM
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check check and check.
only one more question, I didn't understand what you ment by runing the PVC into the tank, do you mean drilling a hole on the side and attaching it, or running it into the tank by the top in using an elbow.


quote:
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i had a huge reply writen out,and when i clicked spell check it deleted it
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ROFL, I hate that when that happens. notice how it only happens when you wright something really long..

[This message has been edited by SoulkeepeR (edited August 09, 2002).]



SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:06 PM
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you should pin this up and post it as "sumps for dummies" lol


slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:08 PM
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just run the PVC over the top. no problems with doing it that way.


SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 09, 2002 12:10 PM
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thanks again slip, I owe you one.


SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 18, 2002 03:45 PM
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Ok, time to buy the stuff.
I am going to buy the MAG 350 GPH Supreme pump

And the Amaricle Overflow box.

Are you absolutely sure about this slip? I heard these things can be quite loud, I stumbled upon an idea that concerned using a stand pipe with an over flow box. Here is a pic...



Or would this be better?
http://home.att.net/~rstockman/overflow.htm

I also heard that the SOS brand overflow box is the best, should I get this one instead?


Thanks again slip.




SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 18, 2002 03:46 PM
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anouther stupid question, just how does a stand pipe work? with it pointed down like that, how can water get in?


slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 18, 2002 04:24 PM
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id think with trying to fit a stockman or durso in a tiny box like that would be alot of trouble.
ive heard from a few sources that a ball valve in the drain line can make them almost silent.

id try that first.


with an overflow like the one in the pic (thats a modified durso overflow)

the water basically just flows as it would in any horizontal pipe. the "tee" on the outside is capped on the top, and a tiny hole is drilled. this way it will allow some air to enter and prevent it from siphoning the water out.

if the hole isnt large enough the water will pulse, up and down in the overflow box. if the hole is too big, the water will never stop rising, and will overflow the box.


a stockman overflow works the same way, except it was designed for overflow boxes and is naturally more compact.

id try the ball valve first and see how noisy it is. if its still loud, ill help you get the parts needed to make either a durso or stockman.


i know of more people that use the amiracle over the SOS, they seem to be mostly similar. they flow about the same GPH, and ive never heard of either one losing syphon. if you wish to spend the extra money, go ahead, though id think the money would be better spent on a good return pump.

[This message has been edited by slipknottin (edited August 18, 2002).]



carpguy
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 165
From: New York
Registered: JUL 2002
posted August 18, 2002 08:42 PM
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Right up front — I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, BUT…
Instead of using screens to make the different sections in the sump wouldn't it make more sense to use sheets of glass or acrylic that aren't as tall as the tank and then stagger them high and low so that the water would be forced to take the longest possible path through the media? Sorry to jump in, I'm just trying to study everything.



slipknottin
Moderator (Moderator)
Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: JAN 2002
posted August 18, 2002 09:35 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by carpguy:
Instead of using screens to make the different sections in the sump wouldn't it make more sense to use sheets of glass or acrylic that aren't as tall as the tank and then stagger them high and low so that the water would be forced to take the longest possible path through the media? Sorry to jump in, I'm just trying to study everything.
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yup, thats how many wet/dry filters are setup. these "baffles" also work great at trapping bubbles. you can use simple 1/8" acrylic sheets, cut them to length then silicone them in place.

as long as you remember to keep the baffles low enough that you compensate for how much the water drops when the return pump is on, it will work fine.





SoulkeepeR
Member (Sr. Member)
Posts: 869
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: MAR 2002
posted August 18, 2002 09:40 PM
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so how low is low enough? its a ten gallon sump
 
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