Switching Water Conditioner Brands

[GoldLenny]

I'm not going to repeat myself by saying that Prime is a good product for people stuck with cycling with fish but it's simply not needed by folks with fully cycled tanks and it adds LOTS of crap that we always talk about NOT adding to their tanks.. the slime-this/stress-that type crap. Oh wait... I just repeated it again. ;-)

Since a lot of people in this thread were concerned about adding too many chemicals to their tanks... and IMO, I don't like adding stuff to my tanks unless I know what's in it and Prime doesn't list their ingredients, I decided to do some digging.

The below quotes are info right from Seachem's representatives, either posts in forums or emails sent to customers...

First, I was surprised to find out that Prime does NOT have EDTA in it and was never formulated to treat heavy metals but they later found out that one or more of their "proprietary" ingredients had some kind of effect on some heavy metals but it's not the same as the chelating effect of EDTA. Here's what Seachem says:

Prime is not a chelating agent, so it does not work that way with heavy metals. Soluble heavy metals (metal ions that can be absorbed) are in an oxidized state. Prime reduces metals, which detoxifies them. Note that it does not remove metals from the water (it just detoxifies them), so you really should have a decent water supply or RO/DI equipment. Please also note again that we talk about detoxifying heavy metals found in tap water at typical concentrations; we do not sell Prime to detoxify heavy metals at abnormally high concentrations.

Just a note to Discus keepers... or other low pH fish keepers.

Prime does not affect the pH of tanks, unless it is severely, drastically overdosed. In the bottle it has a pH that is neutral to alkaline, and it works very well over that pH range. It is less effective if the pH is strongly acidic. However, we have used it in tanks that run at a pH of 4.5 or so.

I don't like how they say "remove" but I guess it's semantics. As noted above, it doesn't "remove" but does "reduce" low levels of heavy metals.

The standard dose of Prime (1 mL/10 gallons) will remove:

Copper - 2.6 ppm in 10 gallons
OR
Lead - 8.5 ppm in 10 gallons
OR
Nickel - 2.4 ppm in 10 gallons

We say "OR" between each because that is the maximum amount of each that can be removed assuming none of the other components are present; so for example, one could remove 1.3 ppm copper and 4.4 ppm lead or any other variety of differing ratios between them.

We hope this helps

The next quote is self explanatory and admits that Prime has some slime-this type chemicals in it.

This is Seachem's response to my query as to why Prime has "slime enhancers" and their claims of "removing heavy metals":

---------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:56:17 -0500
From: Seachem Tech Support
Subject: Re: Prime Slime Coat/Metals

Hello,

I appreciate your concerns and will try to address them below;

Our Prime contains a mild stimulant to assist the fish with production of slime coat. Prime does help the fish "provide a slime coat" by stimulating the fish to do so. We do not use amine based polymers for this purpose as most of our competitors do.

This is quite different from another product in our line called Stress Guard. Stress Guard contains protein active polymers that actively seek out exposed proteins (wounds, abrasions, etc.) for healing purposes.....it can almost be thought of as a liquid bandage. Basically Prime helps to stimulate while our Stress Guard actually coats.

Regarding another statement "..... fish that cannot replenish its slime coat in 24 hours is sick and needs a lot more help than Prime." I completely agree! That is why we do not market Prime as a medication. However we do manufacture a full line of medications if needed.

As for metal precipitation, this was an unintended function of the product. Other dechlorinators use sulfur based reducing salts and the result is similar. So it is listed on the label.... mainly for marketing purposes. But again, I agree that if you have lead or other harmful metals present in your source water a better method of removal if called for. That is why we also offer RO/DI filters for ultimate water purification.

Best Regards,
Seachem Technical Support,rb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course I just HAD to email SeaChem and see if they would divulge their secret ingredient, and of course they wouldn't but I had to ask!

______________________________________

Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:13:11 -0500
From: Seachem Tech Support
Subject: Re: Prime Slime Coat/Metals

Hello Again,

You are welcome. And regarding the stimulant that is used in Prime, I unfortunately can not divulge that as it is proprietary. Most water conditioners include some type of slime coat stimulator or coating agent. We include a small amount of mild stimulant (as mentioned) in Prime but we do not market Prime as a slime coat type product. We market it as a water conditioner that removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia etc. (see label). We DO however market our StressGuard as a slime coat type product. Our StressGuard is one of my personal favorites in our line and often overlooked. Our StressGuard is a disinfectant to help control spread of disease, it is not sold as a dechlorinator. Since StressGuard controls the spread of disease with a disinfectant and contains protein active polymers to promote the healing process, it is great to use when quarantining new fish or introducing new fish into the main system. I have also found it very helpful for cichlid hobbyists (I'm a big cichlid hobbyist myself). I use it when cichlids don't play nice as it really helps heal wounds, torn fins, etc. If slime coat type products are a topic of discussion on your forum, you may wish to mention that Prime is our dechlorinator while StressGuard is our slime coat product/disinfectant.

Best Regards,
Seachem Technical Support,rb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Rbishop]

Actually seachem SAFE is by far the best dollar value out there..... not PRIME. Same product in a powdered form.

It depends on where you buy and in what volume I would think. In addition, there is always that "user friendly" factor...so difficult to determine. For most aquaria keepers, IMO, the dosing from a bottle by drips or caps is probably seen as less trouble/work than measuring out powder doses.

As you gain tanks and massive tank volumes, I can see the powdered form easily becoming more cost effective.

***Hmmm...need to talk to Neo about that echo in here***

 

[nc0gnet0]

What I find most interesting is seachem is actually responding to all the questions, many won't! Prime/safe works just fine, still the best dollar value on the market (other than thio). If you can find a product that is cheaper per gallon and works great then seachem SAFE, then let me know. :silly:

And I am a discus keeper with fish costing more than $300 each. Seachem has my complete confidence. Company's that make and market products like melafix not-so-much.

 

[aXio]

Actually seachem SAFE is by far the best dollar value out there..... not PRIME. Same product in a powdered form.

Is the powder added directly to the tank or do you have mix it with something like water?


@GoldLenny

Do you know anything about the quality of ingredients used in the different products? I would think that would certainly change the quality of the product it's self no? Even if the ingredients are listed the same on two different products I would think they could very well be different quality wise. Unless I'm just crazy for this assumption...

 

[Slappy*McFish]

I wouldn't recommend anyone to use API TapWater Conditioner that has Chloramines in their tap. (and yes, I've read the entire thread). Many folks do more than 20% water changes and quite frequently change 50% or more. That much free ammonia should not be released without a very strong, healthy biofilter in place. This is even more important in systems that are heavily stocked with fish and/or have a pH above 7. I just wouldn't do it.

 

[Rbishop]

:headbang2:

 

[GoldLenny]

Is the powder added directly to the tank or do you have mix it with something like water?


@GoldLenny

Do you know anything about the quality of ingredients used in the different products? I would think that would certainly change the quality of the product it's self no? Even if the ingredients are listed the same on two different products I would think they could very well be different quality wise. Unless I'm just crazy for this assumption...

I don't think most companies go through the trouble of setting up a plant, labeling, bottling, etc. with the intentions of using bad chemicals in their products.

Can it happen... sure... but it's not likely, most of the time.

I think you'd have to ask each company... but then they could be using one supplier today and another tomorrow, if they get a better price. Also, the source of the chemicals that the supplier uses comes into play. Remember the Chinese pet food additive issues??

Even one plant could put out a better batch than another plant for the exact same company's product... that's why they have batch numbers and issue recalls based on batch numbers.

Even buying your own chemicals and mixing them yourself can result in YOU getting a bad batch of something that had the wrong chemical in it... or transfer due to human error by accident and you don't find out until all your fish are dead.

 

[GoldLenny]

What I find most interesting is seachem is actually responding to all the questions, many won't! Prime/safe works just fine, still the best dollar value on the market (other than thio). If you can find a product that is cheaper per gallon and works great then seachem SAFE, then let me know. :silly:

And I am a discus keeper with fish costing more than $300 each. Seachem has my complete confidence. Company's that make and market products like melafix not-so-much.

Both Seachem and API reply to every contact us form that I've sent them over the years. Both of them make many good products and some not so good products... as do most companies that make chemical products for our fish.

As far as API's Melafix, it has been tested by many in the hobby, even Doc Johnson at KoiVets.com forums tested it a long time ago and had a long article about it and gave it a thumbs up. It's not a replacement for stronger antibiotics when needed but it's fine for use with minor external issues... although I did have to rely on the cocktail of Melafix and Pimafix for a more serious internal bacterial issue shortly after Katrina when nothing else was available and they worked... or at least helped the sick fish get better.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Is the powder added directly to the tank or do you have mix it with something like water?


@GoldLenny

Do you know anything about the quality of ingredients used in the different products? I would think that would certainly change the quality of the product it's self no? Even if the ingredients are listed the same on two different products I would think they could very well be different quality wise. Unless I'm just crazy for this assumption...

Yes the powder can be added directly to the tank, 1/4 teaspoon treats 50 gallons, 1/8 teaspoon 25. You can add it to water first but don't store it this way for any longer than a week, according to Seachem, the only difference is that SAFE doesn't contain the stabilizers that prime does. The only need for these "stabilizers" is to keep the chemicals from breaking down when in a liquid form. Other than that, SAFE is exactly the same as PRIME......minus the water.

 

[nc0gnet0]

As far as API's Melafix, it has been tested by many in the hobby, even Doc Johnson at KoiVets.com forums tested it a long time ago and had a long article about it and gave it a thumbs up.

This is a huge overstatement if there ever was one, I am very familuar with what doc johnson did say about it. The conclusion was it was useless for anything but supercial scrapes/cuts/ etc. And the best thing for those is clean water and plenty of it. But api still markets it as anti fungal and anti bacterial...bah...getting off subject.

At any rate to say Doc Johnson gave it a thumbs up is a bit of a over-exageration......I am sensing a pattern......