Target Water Chemistry (non-EI Category)

You need not not assume that EI requires 50% water change a week, I do once a month of 2 of my tanks, none on the non CO2 tank and weekly on some of my tanks. Depends.

For management of growth rates/work etc, you start where growth starts....sort of obvious ain't it?

I suggest you use less light......why not actually test light while we are at it????

Humm............I'm being a teaser, but it does make a good point, why only test 1/3 and the most minor part of it........with respect to testing what makes aquatic plants grow??? Light CO2 and nutrients. Light drives CO2 demand, which in turns drives all nutrient uptake.

Without the carbon skeletons to incorporate the nutrients, all this stops.
Without the light to power CO2 uptake, this all stops.
Without nutrients to help build the other parts, adding all the light/CO2 does not matter.

So, test the light too!!
It's easy but the meters cost 200-350$ or so, but these can be rented or shared amongst hobbyists, Reefers use them all the time.

Then you have a much better idea of the whole picture.

CO2 is real issue however.

It's the most difficult and transient of all the parameters and central to most of the problems.

I guess folks think they can test what folks have tested for the last 30 years or or more and find new insight. Or you can test things folks have not and put all the pieces together to have a much better understanding.

Still Tropic and myself among others have long said the same things:

http://www.tropica.com/advising/technical-articles/biology-of-aquatic-plants/co2-and-light.aspx

Nutrients are easy and you can modify any method of dosing, they do add all the same things after all.....just at different rates.

Most folks do NOT test consistently and guess, or use the plants as the test kits. I gave up telling them to test a long time ago. When you tell them to test, this also means they have to calibrate the test kits, another step.....that most, maybe 90-95% do NOT do.

So those test data are simply guesses anyway, let alone the light PAR value........and even worse, CO2.

So it opens up a whole can of worms really.

If you are new, is sounds simple when the LFS tells you to test.

Still, EI is just modified PMDD and only uses 50% weekly WC's as an example. It is easy to modify and reduce and I've NEVER once stated otherwise. Other folks have assume this........but I have never said it once.
And I ought to know.

A simple way to reduce the dosing is to start with a non limiting level, then slow and progressively redeuce the dosing down till you hit a negative response from the plants, adjust say 10% less dosing each 2 weeks.
Once you see the negative response, bump back up to the next highest dosing rate.

This is the optimal dosing rate, then you can reduce the % water change since there's less estimated build up. So you can easily reduce the % water changes with a little effort and also.......no testing ppm's, using only the plants as a test kit.

Yes, both require observations and patience, the latter is seriously lacking in aquarist however.

PPS is almost entirely PMDD, darn near plagerism if you ask me, I happen to know both sides of the folks with these methods.

Still, test vs water change, testing the right parameters to begin with that are the root differences(light/CO2), sediment vs water column etc......most of these issues are human, not plant growth issues, folks have the assumptions, they are impatient, they say they want to test but do not......they look to lay blame on the methods, not themselves:)

The methods do not fail, we do.

Will you learn a lot by testing nutrients?
Not a whole lot without also testing light and CO2 really well and critically also.

Are you after a simple easy method to grow plants without much labor?
Then use non CO2 methods, they are proven and require no water changes(I've gone 2 years without them).

No one method will be all things to every aquarist goal either.
If you want to test, by all means do it...........however, make sure you understand the light and CO2 issues very well before making any conclusions, and also......what constitutes an effective control in any test on plant growth, algae and plant health.

In general, I use light to manage my rates of growth, I use sediment rich source of ferts, and I use the water column dosing as well. I prefer getting the most out my lighting and this minimizes all algae, enhances the growth of the plants without becoming weedy etc. Why waste electric light energy and then limit one of the cheapest things we have? Ferts and water?

Those are far cheaper than light electrical cost. Few alos are willing to spend 300$+ on light meter, or on nicer high grade test kits. I must have 6K$ worth of test equipment and standards, but I'm a bit more into testing than the average aquarist also:o This does not include the work USDA lab either.......just my personal stash

Hope this helps

Regards
Tom Barr

Again, clear and concise. Long story short, your plants will tell you if you have adequately cared for them. :) I guess my problem is I have a lot of light (260 W over 72 gallons, with 20-24" to the bottom), but I like the way it looks for the fish. I have cut back to 130W, but would eventually like to get them back up. I have been chasing green water for a variety of causes, so I am scared to having ample nutrients in my water for plants, hence all my questions about water chemistry, light, CO2, etc.
 
6. Algae are not nutrient limited in aquariums with fish and plants. Argue this all you want, but you need to research and see what types of nutrient levels will limit algae. They are extremely low and any fish waste and plant decay, leaching etc is more than enough to supply algae with all they need.

7. 90-95% of all algae related issues are due to improper use of CO2.

8. 90-95% of all algae problems are related to improper use of CO2.
There is a good reason to repeat this because folks will forget and blame the nutrient dosing method(and this issue is not limited to just EI, every other dosing routine has the same issues).

This comes from this link
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4882-Confusion-about-EI-and-other-myths

Trust Mr Barr ;) read his sight. Barrreport.com
I am very new to this planting thing, and still learning everyday. IF you like the way your fish look with high light, great(not that wpg is a good way to measure light). But do you like the way they look with green water? I can't remember if you said you co2 dosed or not. I think one of the best statement Mr. Barr made above was that aquarist or impatient. I will readily admit I am. Im not saying don't test your water. Go for it, it will teach you alot, and if you are like me, I learn by doing, so I still test mine. but also learn to trust those with much more experience.
 
Again, clear and concise. Long story short, your plants will tell you if you have adequately cared for them. :) I guess my problem is I have a lot of light (260 W over 72 gallons, with 20-24" to the bottom), but I like the way it looks for the fish. I have cut back to 130W, but would eventually like to get them back up. I have been chasing green water for a variety of causes, so I am scared to having ample nutrients in my water for plants, hence all my questions about water chemistry, light, CO2, etc.

Please do not misconstrue my intent, I advocate testing for specific questions and to answer some issues. But..........by and large, folks get nutrocentric, then lose sight of the light and CO2.

Happens all the time on the forums unfortunately.
They end up wasting their effort and motivation chasing the nutrients and not really learning about growing plants and gardening.

260w can work on a similar sized tank, but it's more work and a good deal of messing with CO2. You can try 130 Watt for 4-5 hours and then turn the rear bank on the last 4-5 hours with no overlap, that will give good spread and not have a high intensity.

70 gal with 108 W:
resized70galADAwith1.5wgal.jpg


GW is easy to get rid of and common in new tanks with poor CO2, and high light and poor cycled/filters. UV's are good at getting rid of it, but you'll not likely get it again in this tank once removed, so the UV is not really something you will need much thereafter.




Regards,
Tom Barr
 
Please do not misconstrue my intent, I advocate testing for specific questions and to answer some issues. But..........by and large, folks get nutrocentric, then lose sight of the light and CO2.

Happens all the time on the forums unfortunately.
They end up wasting their effort and motivation chasing the nutrients and not really learning about growing plants and gardening.

260w can work on a similar sized tank, but it's more work and a good deal of messing with CO2. You can try 130 Watt for 4-5 hours and then turn the rear bank on the last 4-5 hours with no overlap, that will give good spread and not have a high intensity.

GW is easy to get rid of and common in new tanks with poor CO2, and high light and poor cycled/filters. UV's are good at getting rid of it, but you'll not likely get it again in this tank once removed, so the UV is not really something you will need much thereafter.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Totally did not miscontrue, and I think you are correct, that people get stuck in the numbers and miss the big picture (happens to me all the time). I have had my lights down to 130W (per a comment you made several post of mine ago). The back bank seems to have the fan, the front not so much. I leave the back ones on, and when I want better fish watching, I turn on the front lights, then off. I think I was totally over-lighting the tank (with concomitant under-CO2-ing). All of this advice has been great, and has given me a great feel for my tank. I set up a DIY CO2 system and when we get back from the beach I will turn it on. I have it set up such that I can add bottle one at a time, to see what the plants do well in.
I definitely will post pics when I get them.
 
How large is the DIY system? I only ask because you're going to need a lot of the mix to get to a decent level, at least enough to provide for the CO2 demands your plants will have under your specific lighting...which brings me to another question, what type of lighting is it? If I missed that I apologize.
 
How large is the DIY system? I only ask because you're going to need a lot of the mix to get to a decent level, at least enough to provide for the CO2 demands your plants will have under your specific lighting...which brings me to another question, what type of lighting is it? If I missed that I apologize.

It is 4x65W CF fixture running 50/50 bulbs. It also has a 2W LED moonlight. It's a holdover from my FOWLR days.
For the DIY, I have built it but not set it up, as I am going away and don't want to start it if I can't obsessively monitor the pH. :-)
I will post pictures. There are three lines into the bubble counter. I have one coming froma 3qt juice bottle, one from a 1.89L juice bottle, and two 2L diet coke bottles. I can run one DC bottle in, if I think the 4th bottle is needed, I have a hose splitter so I can connect the 2 DC bottles to go into the bubble counter in one line. Right now I have a cheap airstone for in the tank. I would like to go with nice glass fritted filter or a 10$-mini filter (like are in my kids 2.5gallon tanks).
 
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