Trouble with established tank

[Isthan]

Hi! I'm new to these forums but i'm really getting into the hobby after owning tanks and freshwater fish for 5 or 6 years. At the moment I have a 37 gallon tank that is taller than wider. I have it planted densly in some areas for hiding spots and sparse planting throughout the rest of the tank. The plants are all plastic, although. I have several rocks leaned to provide shade and hiding places on the bottom. I also have floating lilipads and duckweed (plastic) to create a muted lighting setup and make the fish feel secure

In the tank: 7 Zebra Danios, 21 Neon/Cardinal Tetras, 5 Clown Loaches, 2 Bronze Corydoras, 2 smallish 1 large common plecos, 2 Dwarf Gouramis, 1 Honey Gourami, 2 Juvenile Discus.

The Discus are the biggest fish, aside from the one large pleco. The tank has been going for about 3 years now through various stock. I was down to a few danios and the bottom dwellers at one point, but over the last two months or so I've added the tetras, gouramis, loaches and most recently discus.

The tank is very relaxing to watch and always remains interesting to sit infront of. The zebra danio are by far the most lively fish and never seem to stop moving for long. The Loaches are also very active and are industrious cleaners. The catfish remain more placid but I can count on them to clean the remaining food after feedings. The tetras are by far the smallest fish in the tank and are fairly secure in their large shoal. The discus are very active and social fish, and suprisingly non-violent. This has changed a bit after I adjusted my water temp to accomodate the Discus's preferences. The pair of discus now lunge into each other like territorial gouramis do sending one Discus into hiding frequently.

I feed them a variety of foods, namely Tetra-min flakes for the smaller fish, Tetra-min Color Bits for the Gouramis and bottom feeders (and discus but they really dont care to eat it) Beefhearts are the only food that appeals to my discus. The Gouramis and Danios also like dried Bloodworms as well.

My tank is concerning me because I seem to lose fish, either out of my ignorance or by absolute 'mystery.' I'll explain a little bit more.

I added the gouramis and neons to the tank along with 10 rummy-nosed tetras and it was shortly after I added them that I learned what ich is. 3-4 out of the 10 rummy-nosed were deeply infected with ich, covering most of their slim bodies. Unsure of what to do at that point, I removed all 10 (rather difficult I might add) Rummy-nosed tetras after being suggested by the fish store where I bought them from. The store gave me a bottle of Malachite Green and I treated the fish as it reccomended on the bottle.

I waited about a week and a half and added 12 tetras to more complete my shoal. I figured the larger the shoal, the less they would be chased by the very lively danios. This was very true, and it made the neons more happy in general. I also added 4 clown loaches to the tank to aid the catfish and plecos with the expanding stock of fish. These 4 had some residual signs of ich which made me very disappointed with the fish store I'd been using. They had maybe 3-4 white cyst-like spots on the fins and body. Several died over the next week and I replaced them with healthy clowns. At that time I also treated for ich again with malachite green. They appeared healthier and the spots had seemed to fade.

Christmas had been coming and I wanted to buy a pair of stunning fish for my parents to watch in this tank. I chose a pair of discus, not taking their care regimens lightly either. I bought a new heater because my 5 year old existing heater wouldnt take the water temp past room temp. I set up the new heater and took the opportunity to siphon waste at the same time since I knew the Discus demanded cleaner water. I set the water overnight to equalize. While siphoning, I found the recent body of a clown loach, likely one of the last of the first 4 loaches I bought with illness. I took the body and replaced the water and minutes after, I noticed 3 danios losing swim control and swimming erratically in circles. They began to swim upside down and sideways like they do when they are very ill. I accepted the loss of my fish, knowing they could not be helped at this point without more information. I took my loach corpse to the fish store to get credit for a new loach and asked for advice on my existing problems. They told me that the tap water is chlorinated and that I would have to use a water treatment of which I already owned a bottle: AquaSafe. I have added the treatment since and have not lost any more fish.

I have, although, noticed one of my Dwarf Gourami has developed a bloat on the left side of his body shortly after I fed him today. The fish lies lethargic at the top of the tank and his excrement is clear, jellylike and unsolid. I researched possible afflictions, and dropsy was the closest ailment. His scales are not frayed out like a pinecone though, and simply looks like his stomach is very full. The rest of his body looks normal.

Suprisingly through all this though, the Discus are doing the best or so it seems. I have begun to get them to eat the food I offer them and the fact that they are not dead yet says something. My Nitrate levels spiked after I added the water, but only by about .3 mg/l and has now leveled off. My water's temperature is around 83 F.

I need a little advice about whethermy community of fish is sound, why I keep losing fish, and ANY advice to keep from losing any more fish, because I really enjoy the tank thus far.

 

[sumthin fishy]

Wow. So you found the problem with the chlorine. Thats a start. Usually discus are kept in a species only tank, but Im not an expert on them so Ill leave that one at that. What do you do for water changes, details, how much, how often, temperature, evrything you do. The loaches and the pleco will definatly outgrow that tank by a mile, so I would consider something else in thier place. If I were you, I would ditch the danios too. two schools of different species will not be as pleasing as one larger school. Get a few more corries as they like to school as well. I missed if the rummynoses were still there or if they all died, but they will be ok with the cardinals and neons. I dont know what is wrong withyour guarmie so mabey someone else can diagnose that for you.

If you have a small tank you could use to quarantine new fish, that would help a bit with the desease issue. You should look at the article forrum for the "ich" article, there is a method using salt and heat to treat ich that is far less stressfull to your fish than any medications. I hope ive helped a bit, mabey someone else can chime in more

 

[liv2padl]

to begin with you have far too many fish in that tank ... the fact that it's tall rather than wide, decreases the most important parameter for fish load -- surface area.

a biofilter (those bacteria which convert ammonia and nitrite to nitrate) is sustainable based on the concentration of ammonia which begins the process. that level of ammonia is present based on the number of fish in the tank. when you significantly increase the number of fish, virtually overnight, the ammonia spikes because there are not sufficient bacteria (yet) to process that NH3 concentration.

your discus, although they may seem ok right now, are going to decline. they simply do not do well in such a mixed and active tank as yours and in fact, do best in a species tank as a group of 5-7 individuals. moreover, while you've elevated the temperature to suit your discus (a good thing) the rest of your fish do not and will not appreciate temperatures higher than 78° in the longer term and may be showing the effects already.

common plecostomus grow to over a foot and your tank is too small for them. while there are other species of pleco that grow smaller, your corydoras are doing the "bottom" job and don't need to compete with other bottom workers. similarly for clown loaches.

you should be changing about 50 percent of the water in this tank on a weekly basis and vacuuming the gravel concurrently. vacuuming means getting in there with a gravel vacuum (like the Python®), not just skimming the surface with a siphon. this isn't easy in a tank heavily "planted" but imperative nonetheless when the 'plants' are plastic.

you might consider a quarantine tank .. one in which you install new fish for about 3 weeks until you're certain they have no diseases which will transfer to your primary tank. you can also use it for a hospital tank, to treat individual fish or groups of fish rather than medicating your entire tank.

so, bottom line ... i'd eliminate the discuss, you're going to lose them anyway, and thin the herd so to speak to avoid continued losses due to the stress of crowding.

 

[sumthin fishy]

you might consider a quarantine tank .. one in which you install new fish for about 3 weeks until you're certain they have no diseases which will transfer to your primary tank. you can also use it for a hospital tank, to treat individual fish or groups of fish rather than medicating your entire tank.
.

Id like to add to this, that if the fish in your tank have ich, you will still need to treat the whole tank since ich will be freeswimming in there already. This is just in the case of ich though, so it can still be a hospital tank for other ailments.

 

[Isthan]

I realize that one of the strongest problems I've had in this whole ordeal is the lack of a quarantine tank that probably would have eased alot of my headaches. Part of me wants to have it for the future fish, but I also didnt exactly want to buy another 10 gal with a new filter/heater/lights to invest in. Not to mention the idea of cycling this tank. Here are some thoughts I've had though...

My friend is setting up a 55 gallon tank and I have convinced him to try discus in that tank because he liked the personality of my pair. I was going to give him the Zebra Danios to help him cycle the tank because they are very hardy and I dont care if they die, because it will make my tank less congested. I also plan to gift him my large common pleco because it is just a drain on my tank as is. He does not clean glass or gravel and instead adheres under a rock in the shade. My dad had bought him in hopes that a bigger fish would clean more glass, as you can tell he tried to solve that problem purely with logic.

I realize that when I stocked my fish, I should have done so slowly to allow the natural processes to gradually increase. I am almost too worried to siphon now, because of the loss of 3 fish just from what seemed like a routine cleaning.

When I siphon, I set the water overnight in empty milk jugs to equalize. I use a siphoning tool and stab the gravel until I see the brown detritus flowing into the hose. I move it around most of the tank removing 1/3 of the water. I learned last time I siphoned about the intense chlorine that must be in our tap water, because the fish had shown symptoms of imminent death shortly after refilling. What question is raised in my mind is what kind of preparation can be done to neutralize the chlorine? Surely losing fish after routine maintenance is not normal.

Should it be my next priority to set up a Quarantine tank with the 7 danios to cycle it or should I be more concerned with the danger my pets could be in in an overstocked and obviously poorly managed tank?

 

[sumthin fishy]

Well like was said, get rid of the pleco and the clowns for a start. Gifting the danios to a friend would be good too. Since you are already pretty well stocked, you dont need a q-tank so much, but if you still want one, you can get the 10 setup, put the 10 gallon filter on the 37 and the filter will cycle quite quickly, especially if you squeeze some of the gunk from the other filter into it.

The loss of fish during cleaning was likely due to the chlorine, so dont worry too much as long as you are using a dechlorinator. Do you have a test kit for nitrate nitrite and ammonia? If so post your reaadings (not "fine" like a lot of people say, but the actual numbers you get) If you dont have one get one, it will help a lot.

You said you let your water sit for a bit before you add it? thats fine, but most dechlorinators work within seconds(just FYI, letting it sit doesnt hurt, but doesnt do mich good if you use dechlor) You want to make sure the water is close to tank temperature as rapid temp changes will affect your fish.

Another thought, can you test for ph kh and gh, and test both the tank and the tap water? If there is something in the tank that changes your tank readings for these a rapid up and down there cold be a problem too

 

[Hannys_Papa]

I am not sure if it has been asked and i overread it - but how often do you gravel vac and change water ?

As said before - your tank seems pretty crowded - a lot of people would probably advise you to do at least 50% water change per week and gravel vac every time.

 

[themadblimper]

I think you will need a larger tank for the discus as they grow. (Man, can they grow!)

 

[Roan Art]

Sounds to me like you have a nitrates problem and if I'm right, they are off the chart.

What are your tank readings? Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and how often and in what quantity do you water changes?

One of the first things I've learned is that if a clown loach dies, check the nitrates. They're the first ones to go, usually.

Roan

 

[Isthan]

I have a Nitrate testing kit. At the time I put the AquaSafe into the tank to save my existing fish, I tested the Nitrate. I normally get readings of <.3mg/l (the kit was obviously made in germany) and I have tested it on several occasions to get this result. At the time of the water change, it was the highest I've seen it, but still not "off the charts." I believe the Nitrate was at the .3mg/l coloration which is only one level from the lowest reading.

I thought that the fish I had were mostly in "balance." I had read that it isnt how much a fish eats that can harm them, but what they dont eat. With that in mind, I picked fish that I had kept before (aside from the discus) and picked fish to clean up after them. It was my general idea that the mid and top level fish generate waste that the bottom feeders would scavenge and clean.

I realize the pleco doesnt have much future in my tank, but why get rid of the Clowns? They're probably my favorite =(

If i'm going to do water changes once a week, which I have no problem doing, I just need to know how to prevent another disaster like my last attempt. I read on the bottle of AquaSafe that it will not remove chlorine from an uncycled or overstocked tank. It makes me worry about the numbers of fish I have in my tank. I had hoped after reading some of your suggestions that I could add my AquaSafe into my equalizing water while it sits to neutralize the chlorine but can it work on an "uncycled tank" which in other words is my uncycled tap water? How do you folks go about changing water in your tanks?

At this point is dropping the danios into a fresh tank to be my q-tank a good idea? It seems from what i've read from you guys that reducing that stock and getting a q-tank is a good idea, is this killing two birds with one stone? If the loaches also need to go, would they be supported after this tank is partially or fully cycled? Additionally, what things will I need to know about cycling a small tank?