Water Change Dangers

I have to respectfully disagree with the information (if not the helpful intent) in the opening post.
Cleaning your filter media improperly can damage the nitrifying bacteria population, which can cause ammonia and nitrite spikes (a 'mini-cycle'); as long as you only rinse filter media in old tank water, I see no problem with conducting large water changes and cleaning filter media at the same time. Almost all the beneficial bacteria live on the filter media, so changing the water doesn't affect the number of bacteria to any extent. I do 50% changes at least once a week, usually more like every four to five days, and rinse filter media every time (in old tank water). My tanks are fully cycled, and don't experience spikes in NH3 or NO2.
 
Exsactly what I mean, I have never had problem with anything like this until this one time. It could just be a fluke but this guys book said it actually happens all the time. And the best way to prvent it is do not do all three at the same time.
 
Being only a fish keeper of 3 months my thoughts don't carry much weight. However, I will say that it certainly makes sense to me. Right or wrong, it is probably better to err on the side of caution and much better for the fish in the end.

I know when I was done my fishless cycle the 'first' time I cleaned, vacuumed and rinsed - I had to start my cycle over again because I wipped out my nitrite killing bugs. Since then I put 2 sponges in each of my filters and only clean one at a time so that 3 filters are always full of bugs. Maybe I don't need to do that but I feel much better not taking chances...
 
exsactly my reason for posting it thank you Aquadummy.

My apologize to evrybody, I am by no means trying to say the way you guys are doing it is wrong, or that this is necessarily right. But As aquadummy has just said it can and does make sence. And to air/err(?) on the safe side is the main reason I thought I would bring this to everybodies attention. The whole water change thing, how much you change is totally up to you I personally do at least a 30% water change every sunday. I am just saying that for new people who are new to the hobby it may be better to be safe and to not do all three at the same time. My first post was simply me passing on what this guy has written in his book, and I made a point of asking for input specifically for this reason, to see if it is valid. You guys have overwhelmingly made me believe the water change percentage he wrote is wrong(which I already kinda believed anyways) But there is still none of you that have given a good enough reason to make me believe that the rest of it is wrong and therefor I still think it is probably best for people to air/err(?) on the safe side!

Again my apologize to those of you who I may have angered or that dis-agree with my post but still you have no reason to say the whole post is wrong or not true or ignorable and you have to agree that it is always better to be safe than sorry
 
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There is *no* bacteria free floating in the water, so the argument that removing too much will deplete your colony is invalid. The only threat is if you don't match the paramters.

You can't do a gravel vac. without water changing.

As for cleaning your media, you shouldn't really ever need to completely *replace* your media (at least not without phasing new media in), but cleaning it in tank water won't hurt a bit.

I do the three of those things together all the time and my tanks get 50% water changes about 2-3 times a week.

Discus keepers have to do all of those things daily, and for juveniles the water changes can be upwards of 90%.

Many/most planted tank people do about 50% water changes a week, but for those who don't need to worry about nutrient levels there is no set formula for how often or how much water you change in your tank. The entire process should be guided by nitrate levels and a bit of common sense (since this rule isn't adequate in planted tanks).

That said, it would probably be best not to replace 100% of the water, remove the substrate and clean the filter at the same time...

Erring on the side of caution would mean more water changes....
 
As far as the book you read, many people with good intentions pass on incorrect information, and it is very hard for new hobbyist to see the difference. I would suggest some deeper study into the lifestyle of the bacteria we are concerned with. the primary requirements of this bacteria are food (ammonia or nitrite respectively) oxygen, and a surface to cling to. Filters provide the best of all three and therefore contain the most bacteria in a concentrated space as a rule. Therefore filter cleaning should be approached carefully, one of the reasons many folks here always reccomend cleaning in tank water and nothing else. and also why complete media replacement is seldom reccomended.
Water is a poor surface for bacteria to cling to. bacteria may travel through the water but does not typicaly colonize and reproduce in the open water. therefore high volume frequent water changes ( assuming equal parramiters) will have virtually no effect on the in tank bacteria colony.
Gravel does provide a good surface, but unless ugf is used, the gravel is greatly limited by oxygen. so it generally stand as a secondary bio-filter with the primary tank filter being the biggest colony. In the case of UGF the substrate is the filter media so either way the filter is the primary.
When vaccuming the bacteria is not removed in large quantities. it will not shake loose that easily. bacteria lives in and clings to the tiniest of pores on any surface, and is very difficult to wash loose in relity. the only time bacteria is really reduced via vaccuming is when there are high volumes of mulm to the extent that they block o2 to the gravel, and the bacteria colonizes on the mulm being removed. in these cases, the tank really needs to be vaccumed and partialed until it is both clean and stable anyhow.

So improper cleaning of media is dangerous, water changes and vaccuming have little or no effect. therefore doing all three isn't much different than only cleaning your filters.

I am interested in the title of the book you read, and will most likely read it.
There is a very common and prevalent myth that bacteria lives in the water of the tank in significant quantities. This simply isn't true. there is also a common myth that vaccuming removes bacteria from the gravel this is also not true. It is not at all uncommon in this hobby for someone to write a book based on false information and incorrect deductions without scientific proof. I am far more concerned that new folks in this hobby would be scared away from good tank maintenance, we commonly see folks here with big problems that can easily be fixed with cleaning and partials, and many of them have been told repeatedly not to do too many water changes.

Lastly, I would look carefully at all possibilities that may have spiked the tank, given that the water changes and vaccuming couldn't have a large effect, and I imagine your filter cleaning practices are the same as they have been in the past ( with no problem reprted) there is quite probably a new variable thrown in somewhere.
Such as: Did you forget to dechlorinate (I've done it more than once in my life)
Did someone spray fabreeze in the house?
Did your water company change to chloramines?
Is it possible that anything else could have been introduced via your hands or tools or sink used.
there are many many possibilities to consider when these things occur.

There are many possibilities, and of course there is a definate cause but it may be hard to find. as soon as the fish died in the tank, ammonia would have been produced at an extremely accellerated rate, so ammonia testing after the fact is highly arbitrary. likewise if nitrite took a large spike, it is highly probable that you still had a good supply of bacteria. something had to process anough nitrite to cause a spike in less than 24hours. Typically even with fully stocked uncycled tanks, it takes two to three days to see significant ammonia levels. therefore to see the levels raise overnight enough to kill a tank full of fish seems unlikely to me. Consider all likely possibilities.
dave
 
Your going to cause newbie confusion

Wow, I have noticed several threads tonight that are just not well thought through or based on sound fact and information.
I too disagree with the first poster in this thread, for all the reasons previously stated.
Today is tank maintenance day for me and not only did I change 50% of my water I cleaned my filter and changed the media. I had to be careful vacuuming because of my Bolivian Rams who excavated a large deep hole and proceeded to lay eggs a day or so ago. My water parameters were great when I tested Friday and are great today after the cleaning.
 
Again I am not saying it WILL happen I am saying that this guys book said it is more likely to happen if you do it that way.

WOW everybody at this site is so intolerant of any comments made that go against what THEY think is right. And I also think Everybody needs to read the WHOLE topic not just the first post or two before they post a comment that has already been posted three or four times. So for all the people who didnt get it the first four times I said it here it is again, I Never said it was necessarily right but there is nothing to say it is wrong. I am not saying the way you guys do it is wrong either. I am simply saying that this is what I read could be what caused my problem, SO I posted it in here so everybody could read it and see. There is no downfall to doing it the way the book said so why not do it that way. It may not be necessary to do it like that but hey why not be safe than sorry.

So if anybody else Feels the need to say oh what you read is wrong or stupid you need to know that it is neither wrong nor stupid, it may be unnecessary but it isnt wrong. And if anybody chooses to do it they way the book said I think they should because it is in fact better to be safe than sorry.

I am sorry if you dis-agree, but if you do keep it to yourself. We have heard all the possible arguements and there isnt one that proves it is wrong or a bad thing to do it this way. So until you can prove its wrong or bad keep your negative opinions to yourselves.
 
As a newbieto this forum, I have never heard anyone get as upset as you are! Yea, we all have our ideas of what is good for us but to give people a hard time about what they feel is, well you know, bull****! Everyone's experience is different. That is what makes America, America! And by the way we do read the whole topic before commenting and I personally don't feel any of us are intolerant of any contracting comment.

Everyone has something that works for them. The people here are trying to give every newbie, like me, and experts the tools to find the right thing for them.

I have always said "Don't believe everything you read!"

I personally have learned so much from this forum and now know why my goldfish died. I also read somethings here that I know may not be logical but my instincts tell me if most of the people agree it is usually right!

My experience here has been nothing but informative and fun! I just got the book "A Simple Guide To Freshwater Aquariums" and it was very good.

Anyway, happy holidays, no matter what holiday you celebrate, be good to each other and Happy Fish!!!!! :dance
 
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I am not really that upset about it, I more irritated. the fact is that it may be different than how people here generally do it but it causes no harm to do it that way at all. it just irritates me when people say something is wrong when its actually not. I agree that the water change percentages were off but that is about it. The thing that people have to remeber is they arent my numbers or my info they are out of a book that I read at my LFS, and I was told to read this book by the owner of the store. I am sure he wouldnt have recommended it if it was full of wrong or bad info. Like I said it may be an unnecessary pre-caution but it isnt a wrong or bad pre-caution to take.
 
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