Water hardness observations

I've thought of it.

I might just give Pacific a call and find out if they'll want them. A lot of the lfs around here are not into planted tanks. They wouldn't be able to give these plants the proper care that they need.

Lissette
 
Since I have GH issues I will post my thoughts...

In my tank:
My dGH = 25-27 dGH (German).
My calcium = 240-280 ppm
CO2 maintained close to 30ppm
Nitrates close to 20ppm
PO4 close to 1.5
Fe = .5ppm
KH = 18
PH = 7.2-7.4

My Tap dGH = 24-26dGH
Have not tested tap Calcium. Will do so here this weekend and post.

My source for water is a limestone aquafir which is processed by the small Dayton suburb I live in.

I can NOT grow any sag but vals grow like mad (they are coming out of my ears literally). Further, I am now just seeing shoots in my Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae (Micro Sword) after 4 months of it doing nothing. This is in my 5.5G, not my 30G. I also had troubles growing Echinodorus tenellus (chain sword) and eventually pulled if from my tanks. Finally, green cambomba died within days.

My plants that flourish are Anubias Bateri (low Light), Anubias Coffeefolia (high Light), Asian Ambulia (Limnophila sesiliflora), Anacharis (so many roots), red Jugle Vals, green Jungle Vals, Red Tiger Lotus, Clover (Marsilea quadrifolia) and my Red Rubin Swords.

My plants that survive and grow but not as desired are Creeping Jenny (Lysimachia nummularia), Cardinal Temple (Alternanthera cardinalis), Amazon Sword, Onion Plant.

Just my tank issues

Aries
 
I don't think that the issue here is likely to be overdose as much as imbalance. Excess of one mineral ion out of "normal' proportion to another can give "deficiency" symptoms in the plants, likely due to uptake/transport competition or inhibition.

I don't have Ca/Mg issues as my water is moderately hard (GH ~9, or ~160ppm as CaCO3). Ages ago when I did ressearch it the Ca:Mg proportions were good, so my normal water changes keep the plants happy without additional supplement. As I don't do high light/rapid growth on any of the tanks, I don't worry about supplements between changes.
 
I don't think that the issue here is likely to be overdose as much as imbalance. Excess of one mineral ion out of "normal' proportion to another can give "deficiency" symptoms in the plants, likely due to uptake/transport competition or inhibition.
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This is something I had considered as a possible issue. I don't have much of an understanding at all of nutrient competition, I always worked from the premise that there was one limiting factor, and if other needs were in excess it would not matter. Is it possible that the lack of one thing essentially blocks the plants ability to use another?

I don't have Ca/Mg issues as my water is moderately hard (GH ~9, or ~160ppm as CaCO3)
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One of the thngs that led me to the idea of Tampering with GH was the hardness numbers I have seen you post elsewhere. My numbers (Unless I have grossly mis-understood my test kit) are much higher than yours after my additions. I do run very high light very high nutrient tanks, so there is some difference but I wouldn't think that much. When I switched from coral to aragonite I saw a rapid increase in GH and started backing down my dosing. As soon as I backed things down the plants went downhill.

The following has all taken place over the course of the last 16 months or so. one step at a time.

I first started dosing Mg Based on reccomendations from John, there was some improvement but I also began seeing more prominent symptoms of calcium defeciency. I then started upping my Ca, both through dosing of CaCL and through crushed coral in the substrate. I saw improvement with the calcium additions. I switched to Aragonite instead of or in addition to crushed coral primarily for more stability for shrimp and snails. The plants did O.K, but I still did not have the growth that I wanted, and could not even come close to the growth that John was getting. I then started searching for other missing links. I Purchased some of Tom Barr's GH booster from Gregg Watson, and read the ingredients. Manganese happened to be one of them so I checked with the local water company and they report 0 manganese in our water. since I don't use enriched substrates in most of my tanks, and Tom Barr felt manganeese was important enough to put in his GH booster I explored that. Light manganeese dosing did help as well. Iron is also removed from our tap water, and since I don't use enriched substrates, I dose heavy iron (have from the beggining) I am fearful of too much iron becaue of my shrimp and snails but honestly do not know how much is too much. I dose my traces via CSM+B+Fe from Gregg watson. one would think that would provide enough iron for my plants needs.
John uses eco-complete which contains manganeese and iron both but his tank now has enough age on it that I would think there is some limit to the benefit from the substrate.
I'll do an iron test today and see what I come up with. I've had a kit for a while but have been re-assured several times that testing wasn't needed and I probably had plenty of Fe.

Aside from Fe, Ca, Mg, and Mn what elements would be critical to plant balance. The trace mix is supposed to cover virtually everything else as I understand it.
Just an FYI, our water company uses alum to remove all metals. I don't fully understand the process but according to the tech I spoke to It essentially captures most if not all earth metals and removes them. They do this to produce water with 0 lead and 0 iron. Ca and Mg remain in trace quantities, but all other metals are gone. In the 9 years I've lived here I have never once seen an iron stain on anything that gets wet. Evaporated water barely leaves a spot on anything.
dave
 
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Dave, you should get in touch with Gregg. I'm pretty sure (though not absolutely certain) that CSM+B is formulated with all ingredients in proportion so that dosing the required amount of iron with CSM+B also doses the traces in the correct amount.

On Mg/Ca, my water is GH ~11 and I had crinkled leaves. Suspected Ca. Measured 40ppm Ca and dosed 40ppm for a total of 80ppm. Things are nice and smooth. Now, I dose 1tsp Mg to 4tsp Ca at water changes even with the GH I have. It may be in my head, but the plants look better dosing the Mg. Maybe it's the SO4 (using epsom salts) and not Mg? Without a doubt though, the Ca helps. Snail shells are not pitted, no crinkled leaves, the kids even have fewer cavities from drinking the tank water...no wait...that's flouride! :duh:
 
Dave, you should get in touch with Gregg. I'm pretty sure (though not absolutely certain) that CSM+B is formulated with all ingredients in proportion so that dosing the required amount of iron with CSM+B also doses the traces in the correct amount.
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That has been my understanding as well. I bought the CSM+B+Fe because I previously had to add iron. I thought there would be ample in the trace mix with the extra Fe. Maybe iron is my key and not Ca and Mg. I do not know how much iron is n eco complete, or how much john doses on top of what is in his substrate. I do know that I have one tank with flourish, and the plants look better in that tank. The unfortunate thing is the tank with flourish is vastly different in lighting and suplementation, not to mention it is my only tank without co2 injection. I use excell in that tank, but I'm only home on weekends typically so there isn't any set routine.

CSM+B does not contain any manganese from what I've read I just wonder if there is anything else I'm missing. I still think I have way more Ca and Mg than I should need, but reducing either just send my plants to the bottom.
Dave
 
Everything can be critical for plants, and the higher the light/CO2/added ferts the faster the growth and the easier to get deficiency symptoms. The Ca/Mg ratios or levels I have not had to modify with my current water. On the old water supply I did not have to supplement K either, but on the current supply I do have to add plenty or I get holes, even with moderate light. When I did run some high light, I had to supplement Ca/Mg. Operating as beviking does would be my likely approach. I think that you have done this with single supplement boosting and then another while holding the first one stable - that is the only way I can read deciciency "cures", one supplement at a time. Otherwise it gets too complex. Ditto for high light verus moderate light - the former shows marginal levels or imbalances easily, the latter is less demanding - usually only major lacks (as with my water's vanishingly low potassium levels).
 
This is the best discussion that you can have. Good information exchange, no presumptions, plain scientific minded insight to see what is really the case.

I can grow in this environment. :cool2:
 
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