what are pros/cons of undergravel filters?

REDZPONY said:
Ok, I must be pure idiot...I can not find a RFUG to purchase....am I looking for it by the wrong name perhaps??? I've never heard of one until recently .... can someone please give me a hint? :D
It's a traditional undergravel filter. All you need to pay attention to is the powerhead. They need to be reversible or have a reverse flow option.
 
Harlock said:
It's a traditional undergravel filter. All you need to pay attention to is the powerhead. They need to be reversible or have a reverse flow option.


Or you could use a canister filter, with the return line plumbed into the UG uplift tubes.
 
I set up RTR's ultimate reverse flow undergravel filter in my 150 and it works great. I am using 3 Penguin 1140s operating in reverse flow. (You can get a sponge reverse flow kit from bigals for $7.49 i believe) The sponges do a great job keeping the water clear and the gravel is so clean whenever i gravel vac. The bio filter seems to be doing a great job as well.

The RFUG is my primary bio filter. I am also running 2 eheim 2217 canisters as well in the tank.

I'd highly recommend RFUGs, especially the over engineered. Really good for digging type fish too. Except for my eel that actually sometimes digs his way under the plates from the edges. Good thing he knows how to get out...
 
Well...dom't I feel like the feeble minded one!! Ok..so I get a powerhead for my Emperor 400's, but make sure it will go in reverse...is that simple? :thud:
 
REDZPONY said:
Well...dom't I feel like the feeble minded one!! Ok..so I get a powerhead for my Emperor 400's, but make sure it will go in reverse...is that simple? :thud:
Well, an Emperor 400 is a power filter isn't it? That's a totally different animal than a UGF. A UGF consists of at least one lift tube connected to a plate that sits under the substrate that slightly elevates itself (and of course subsequently the gravel) from the bottom of the tank. This lift tube can in turn be used in conjuction with an air pump to create an airlift system in which bubbles of air are produced at the bottom via the air pump and a length of airline tubing whih in turn pulls water through the tube and so also through the substrate and plate.

Instead of an air pump utilizing an airlift system you can use a powerhead. This powerhead can be used in regular flow, or reverse flow,which we already covered. In Normal flow it works like the airlift, just pulling water instead of using water to pull it. I suppose you could hook an emperor 400 up to a lift tube and use it as a powerhead pulling water with the power filter, but there really isn't a need to as power filters can operate fine by themselves for all three types of filtration: mechanical, biological and chemical, if you choose to use it for all three.
 
RTR said:
Using a biofilter to feed a biofilter is redundant IMHO. It risks lower oxygenation as well.

I wonder how something like the eheim wet/dry canister would work in that application.
 
UGF's were the first real form of filtration available to aquarists. They are limited in that they are only biological, no chemical, and not very good at mechanical. You cannot have a planted tank, and s*** builds up under the gravel. This can raise nitrite and ammonia levels and requires you to pull everything up and clean it out every once in a while. Canister and hang on back power filters have the benefit of not being in the aquarium. They are also incredibly versatile. In an aquaclear or a canister, you will have a foam pad for mechanical/biological, carbon for chemical, ceramic beads for biological, floss to polish it off, even ammonia removing resin pouches. And your gravel will be full of benefitial bacteria anyways.
 
Well...dom't I feel like the feeble minded one!! Ok..so I get a powerhead for my Emperor 400's, but make sure it will go in reverse...is that simple?

RedZ,
Check the bio safe thread, I responded to your similar question there.

UGF's were the first real form of filtration available to aquarists. They are limited in that they are only biological, no chemical, and not very good at mechanical. You cannot have a planted tank, and s*** builds up under the gravel.
Although we see this quite often it is very innacurate. UGF's may have been the first decent filter available ( i doubt it though) Conventional is limited to bio only, although with airlift tubes and carbon inserts they are capable of some chemical filtration (not something I'd consider all that usefull)
as far as stuff under the gravel, that only occurs if they are not maintained. If you properly vaccume a UGF it will stay clean. And as said it requires no more vaccuming than a properly maintained unplanted tank.

This can raise nitrite and ammonia levels and requires you to pull everything up and clean it out every once in a while.

Ammonia and nitrite will only elevate in completely un-maintained tanks, UGF is a highly effecient bio-filter, and is capable of handling far more bio-load than most filters available. One of the key advantages of UGF is the bio-stability it creates at nominal cost. Large cannisters, Sump systems and FBF's are really the only comparable bio-filters, now lets talk cost and maintenance.

I absolutely refuse to break down a tank and remove plates for cleaning. If this was necessary I wouldn't like UGF either. If you happen to get some build-up, then once a year or so run a 1/4" airline under the plates and vaccume it out. But honestly weekly vaccuming is all that should be needed. I think it should also be said that my primary experience with UGF's lies in marginally overstocked Oscar tanks, so short of goldfish I use these filters in the messiest situations possible.

Canister and hang on back power filters have the benefit of not being in the aquarium. They are also incredibly versatile. In an aquaclear or a canister, you will have a foam pad for mechanical/biological, carbon for chemical, ceramic beads for biological, floss to polish it off, even ammonia removing resin pouches

All true ( although I'm not familiar with how well the Ammonia removing resins may or may not work)
Cannisters and Quality HOB's are both good formats to work with, But that certainly doesn't make UGF a bad format. Canniters and HOB's are limited in their own ways not to mention that they add maintenance. The Maintenance required for UGF still needs to be done if you have a cannister instead, but then you also have to clean and maintain a cannister. It would take a massive cannister or HOB to equal the bio capabilities of UGF. Cannisters and HOB's don't prevent anaerobic pockets, and most importantly to me it is very difficult (hob more so than cannisters) to create high turnover without blowing my fish around the tank, something I can do easily with UGF systems.

And your gravel will be full of benefitial bacteria anyways.

This is a common misconception to some extent. With UGF systems the full depth of the Substrate is oxygenated well. In any other set-up configuration, The gravel colonies are limited due to Oxygen. The difference in actual surface area of bio-filter is huge. Furthermore since available oxygen is a primary limiting factor in bacteria Growth, and non-ugf tanks typically have the least oxygen at the bottom of the tank. the bacteria that does colonize in the top layer will not thrive like the same area would with UGF.


We have had this debate so many times on these boards it drives me crazy. There is always someone bringing up the myths, mis-conceptions and mis-understanding about UGF's. sometimes I think a cannister salesman wrote the script and passed it out, because the arguments are always the same, and have no bearing on reality at all. Whether or not someone uses UGF, Cannister, HOB, FBF, veggies, sumps,or any other format is their choice, but blasting a particular format with mis-conceptions and hearsay isn't fair to those trying to learn about them.

Now for anyone up to a challenge. Set-up a ugf only tank, set up a cannister or HOB only tank beside itwith a filter appropriate for that size tank. stock them equally, feed them equally, do enough water changes to keep the fish from dieing but do not do any vaccuming, do not clean the filter, and do not change the media. Test your water constantly so as to protect the fish. and let us know what filter format will preform the best for the longest without any maintenance. Nothing will compare to a UGF in that situation. The problem is in lack of maintenance, not lack of ability.
dave
 
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