What Would PETA Say to This?

Halekoch said:
Whatever PETA's wants and desires really are, they sure made you all think about their issues, ..... not all of us are extremists.
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When an organization actually wants to ban sportfishing-- they have my interest, and I will actually lose money on extremists issues to take off from work should this be the only time to do what I can to counter-act such an extreme outlook on some basic human rights/life actions...

Quote:

"(from Jersey Coast Anglers Association June 2002 Newsletter)

Tell them to protect the fish and your freedom to fish. Just about everybody is familiar with the bizarre antics of radical groups like People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA). PETA’s agenda is simple, but devastating in its consequence: Stop all fishing, outlaw dogs and cats as family pets and strip the evil human population of all leather goods.

While PETA has gained notoriety for its movement, other groups with equally radical agendas are moving in a quieter and more effective manner to accomplish goals that, while somewhat different, are equally at odds with truth and reason. Right now, extremist environmental groups are waging a subtle battle in California and other states for the public’s premier coastal recreational areas. Within the past year, schemes have been hatched that would SHUT DOWN more than 60 percent of southern California’s best sport fishing grounds."

Radical, extreme agendas?
Some would say, "just ban it, I don't like fish anyway"..
Then, what's next?


:thud:
 
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If you are a member of PETA, your donations support the extremist opinions and actions of the entire group...Sorry to say, but trying to split the difference won't give you much change. A group that fails to address the key issues regarding the health and viability of wild populations of any animal, publically states a preference for humans to die instead of animals, relies on the media parade involved with any celebrity, and still makes use of the medical break-throughs that are based on animal studies, doesn't fight the good fight, and honestly, is not interested in improving or saving any wild animal on this planet.

I grew up hunting and fishing. I work for the Game and Fish. I have about 30 pounds of elk in my freezer right now. PETA's public displays and statements do not contain enough facts to provoke thought regarding my consumption of meat. It does make me think that the Freedom of Speech, while a wonderful thing, regretfully protects the rights of complete idiots as well as the rest of us. Think that's what they intended?

No, I guess probably not.
 
To me, the basic issue is one of personal choice. PETA, the religious right, other comparable groups all want to impose their ideas and beliefs on the entire population. That is not what this county is about.

We have upset the balance of nature, and deer have become a significant problem in many areas (including locally in my area). The "animal rights" groups and anti-hunting groups (big overlap but not identical here) pretty well block effective control measures locally. I am delighted to see coyotes returning to the world (the first sightings for me were recent). They will help a little bit by fawn control, and equally well serve to reduce the population of free-roaming cats and dogs - whether feral or just poorly managed by their owners.
 
Well, on an interesting sidebar, what Harlock's original post discusses about deer populations is the very thing happening here with seals. Unfortunately, or so I hear, seal is far from a delicious food, being very fatty and all. Much like the deer problem, we've gone to great lengths to kill off their natural predators, so the populations have no control.

There are two main factions involved here: the fishermen who claim that the seals are decimating fish stocks, and others who claim that seals don't hunt the same fish that we are interested in, namely Cod. In truth there isn't a lot of evidence (from gut analysis) that cod is a favourite fish of seals. However, I think that a major reason for this is that we've decimated the cod population to the extent that cod are no longer a dominant species and the seals are just going to eat what's available and easy to get at. The bottom line is that seals are going to eat whatever fish they can catch be it cod or others. I'm not letting the fishing industry off the hook either, decades of irresponsible fishery management and dishonest fishing practices have led to deeply endangered stocks. But that doesn't mean that seals aren't part of the problem.

While technically off topic, I thought it made an excellent parallel since seal clubbing is generally regarded as cruel. Unfortunately, seals, like deer, are pretty animals that take nice pictures and tug at the heart strings, cod are just kinda ugly. Organisations like PETA have decided that seal clubbing is cruel, and yet there needs to be population control, and lets face it, clubbing is cheap and effective. Yes, they use guns too, because the adults are not something you want to get within clubbing distance to.

Anyway, my take is that PETA will likely oppose a cull to Texas' deer population. However, they, and like organisations, are blind to the fact that since we killed off their natural predators, the control of their populations is our resposibility. They also don't understand that big population doesn't equal healthy population.

Wildlife management, when left in the control of scientists, can help the deer (or seals, or cod, or what-have-you). Left in control of interest groups or politicians (who have a bad habit of being swayed by interest groups) inevitably spells disaster (like with decimated cod stocks or exploding deer populations). I suspect an Australian might say something similar about wild horses.
 
Very well put RTR, about the extremists groups. I feel the same way. Happychem, great post. You said, "They also don't understand that big population doesn't equal healthy population."

This is so very true. I live in a rather arid area. If we have a nice rainy year one year, the fawn crop is astounding. If what follows that year is our typical, or worse, drought year, you will see hundreds are woefully skinny deer that become opportunistic feeders. They'll come into the outskirts of town, feeding on gardens. They'll venture into bar ditches in the hopes some water has collected there and a efw sprouts of grass as there. They'll get into the streets, roads and highways by the score to find food and water. That's where the real problem is.

FWIW, This year was a banner year for Rainfall in San Angelo, TX. 30 inches fell on us. Our average is 19 inches per year. The previous five years were drought years and ranged from 13 to 15... I shudder to think how skinny and unhealthy the deer may look in a couple of years if we get hit with another tough year.
 
The culling of the deer population is good. Especially where I live. Iowa. Most of our money comes from one sort of agriculture. Anybody who says that we should not hunt nor cull deer have never seen what an out of control herd can do to a corn field. I have personally seen corn fields that have been decimated by deer so badly, that the entire 150 acres was not worth the fuel to harvest. The farmer had insurance on the field, but the only way to prevent the problem again was given to him by the DNR, in the form of 25 free landowners tags. He could do whatever he wanted to with the deer(aside form letting it rot). That year, he harvested 28 deer(the DNR gave him some more tags when his group filled 21 of them in the first 6 hours......)

Point is like what everybody else has said. We let the population get out of control, and we need to control it.

IMO, supporting PETA is alot like supporting Hitler for whaterver reason. Sure, he did some great science advances, but the means did NOT justify the ends!
 
On the original subject. Personally I don't have any problems with people hunting for food. I don't care how cute an animal is if you actually eat it rather than use it for ornamentation or entertainment. Deer, yeah, they're cute, but they're also edible. I don't eat meat at all, maybe I should start with my attitude. ;) Yes I eat eggs, the Cage Free Organic ones :D . Cheese too, though it makes me feel really guilty.

I do have problems with people hunting just to keep the population down, and not using the meat. That is where I don't agree with culling. We caused the population explosion, so how will randomly killing available deer solve it, other than mking less deer this year, what about next year. Are we killing only the sickly, or slower animals, or just the one we see first. Can't bring back wolves, we feel it is too much work to guard cattle and sheep from them, and the neighborhood pets that people like letting run loose and breed. Never mind that quite a few ranchers have done it, with fairly good results, and a predator friendly premium price to boot. Too bad, the wolves and mountain lions were great deer population controls. And who can blame them for the cattle and sheep, it isn't like we bred the smartest or fastest food animals. It makes sense for wild animals to attack cattle because it can't run away as far, can't fight back much, and have a lot of meat on it compared to wild foods.

:OT: Back to my culling rant, they had very large problems with when they were culling elephants in Africa, yes ELEPHANTS. They relocated family groups comprised of mainly orphaned elephants, and ended up with groups comprised of just younger animals. In elephants this was quite a problem. The older animals were keeping the younger ones in line. Young male elephants with no elders started killing rhinos, yes, killing rhinos. By not paying attention to group dynamics they got one endangered species to kill off another. http://onafrica.net/jill/2000/20000214_elesattackrhino.html
http://www.und.ac.za/und/lesci/elephant/clash_of_the_titans.htm

Yes I know deer are not like elephants..... just pointing out some problems with organized culling.

The only part of PETA I ever agreed with were fair treatment of animals. Fair being not shoved into a small stall for your entire life, or crammed in a cage to lay eggs. I again don't care that the cow eventually dies, or that the chicken keeps laying eggs, I just care that the more they suffer the lower the quality of the food is for the end user. I just don't agree with torturing my food before I eat it. To the point that good numbers of them ore pumped full of growth hormones antibiotics and such, which are obviously affecting us as well as them. Or does everyone think our children maturing at 10 is normal...

Also have big issues with feeding dead animals to our food animals. I have yet to see a cow go out and kill a pig to eat, so why do we feed them to each other. (can't feed cows to cows anymore, pesky mad cow disease) And don't get me started on the absolute crap they put in dog and cat food. BTW 50 years ago dogs died of old age instead of Cancer... but what do you expect when the not for human consumption meat animals are cheaply avalable, what do you think meat-by-product is really. It doesn't even say what kind of meat, could be zebra for all they know.

I don't agree with sport fishing either. If you're going to fish, eat what you catch, rather than catching it and releasing it over and over with holes in it's head. I have actually gone deepsea fishing and enjoyed it, and my family ate most if not all of the fish we caught, so I didn't have a problem with that.

Guess to sum it up, if you're going to kill it, eat it (does not apply to insects, rodents, and other obvious vermin :D ). And if you're going to eat it, wouldn't you rather it had eaten food it had been designed to eat without the not for human consumption bits of other species. And if I was on a deserted island with only foods available I'd be chasing crabs and monkeys so fast.... :D

Wow I'm long winded today.
 
I do have problems with people hunting just to keep the population down, and not using the meat. That is where I don't agree with culling.

Abandoning meat is abhorrent to every wildlife biologist I've ever met, and I assure you that depredation hunts are not random acts that leave dead animals rotting in the field. The licenses are sold to hunters and animals harvested--for food, for hides, for racks. Some hunters may not want the meat, but ethical sports men and women do not waste meat. Donating it to shelters and such is the norm if the hunter doesn't want it. G&F biologists have worked 10-12 hours in snow storms to harvest meat from animals that were poached (equally despicable behavior) rather than let it go to waste.

Can't bring back wolves, we feel it is too much work to guard cattle and sheep from them, and the neighborhood pets that people like letting run loose and breed. Never mind that quite a few ranchers have done it, with fairly good results, and a predator friendly premium price to boot. Too bad, the wolves and mountain lions were great deer population controls. And who can blame them for the cattle and sheep, it isn't like we bred the smartest or fastest food animals. It makes sense for wild animals to attack cattle because it can't run away as far, can't fight back much, and have a lot of meat on it compared to wild foods.

Wolves are back in some locations. Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho all have numerous resident packs. They are also spreading to Colorado. The problem is that re-introducing the predators is but one piece of the puzzle--habitat conditions, migration corridors, human activity--all these are factors in the effectiveness of any management principle. Just throwing wolves back into the loop won't resolve the problem anymore than their removal was the sole cause of the problem.

To the point that good numbers of them ore pumped full of growth hormones antibiotics and such, which are obviously affecting us as well as them. Or does everyone think our children maturing at 10 is normal...

Uh, yeah, if you mean when their bodies become capable of reproduction. Historically speaking, 10 year olds were about to be married off and start having kids within 2 years. However, it's well documented that social situations--crowding, presence of a male in the household, and genetics play a huge role in determining when menses commences.

I don't agree with sport fishing either. If you're going to fish, eat what you catch, rather than catching it and releasing it over and over with holes in it's head.

Sport fishing, by definition, just indicates the species being targetted, rather than what's done after it's on the line. Game fish vrs non-game fish.
 
North American farmers are not allowed to feed animal protein to their cows/pigs and haven't been for some time. BSE made its rise in Europe through the importing of pigs from China that were used to feed cows. There are some farmers who still do, but there's big trouble if/when they're caught. For good reason, at least on this side of the border, the one case of BSE in one farm in Alberta shut down the US border to Canadian beef, costing the industry billions of dollars. Interest groups and politicians may bandy on about morality, but the one thing that gets them moving is large sums of money.
 
Halekoch said:
Whatever PETA's wants and desires really are, they sure made you all think about their issues, ergo they have a very effective campaign. IMHO, as a member of PETA, the goal is simply to make you think about what you eat and how you live, not change everyone's opinions.
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If that's their goal then they've achieved it with me. When I order meal or prepare one with meat of all types I realize that an animal has died in the process. And I'm perfectly fine with that since I realize that is the main purpose of most of the animals. They are not people and the two species will never be equal. I grew up on a farm where we raised a number of animals. We would feed a calf that was born on our property all the way until they reached 1,500 pounds. At that point we would butcher it and cut it into all the different cuts all on our property. The animals weren't pets, they were meat.
 
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