Why the hard questions?

Some people like to be told what to do without any explanation. Others won't follow through if they don't understand why they're being suggested to this or that. It's very hard to know, from the usual initial post ("My fish are dying!") what the problem may be. My assumption (maybe wrong) is that most people who come here, given the opportunity and clear explanations) want to learn about fishkeeping. Providing an explanation along with a suggestion for action may help a person avoid the same problems in a month, or with their second tank.

As for the barrage of replies asking for water parameters, most LFSs will test for the common water parameters. In some cases, that testing isn't possible or available, and usually we try to help the best we can without that info. But when free testing is available and the poster chooses not to use it, that is a different story, and it is predictive, I think, of the extent to which someone will take care of their fish.

Water quality is pretty important to a fish's health, so knowing a bit about the water helps us figure out what's going on.

Jim
 
Originally posted by Darkangel
Why when someone who is obviously a beginner do you all want to know pH, KH, nitrate, and nitrite levels and such? These people are confused to begin with....
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Frank, I am so glad I read your post! I just started another thread asking about this very thing because the more I read about starting and maintaining a tank, the more confused I become!

My outlook has always been kind of like if I know how to drive the car, add the gas, check the oil and do basic troubleshooting, I should be okay. I don't need to know how the whole car WORKS. :)

Naturally, the car is not a living thing, but you get the idea of how I feel!

And I'm feeling better now. :)
 
I agree with you to a certain point. However, I don't see what is scary, complicated or confusing about using most test kits. In my experience testing involves filling a sample cup up to the dotted line, adding X drops of test solution and comparing it to a chart to see if it is past the 'danger' level. In some cases it is as simple as dipping a piece of cardboard in the water and waiting a few moments.

You certainly can't hurt anything by testing or attempting to test the water, it can only help you or others understand what is going on in the tank. The people answering questions are not mind readers. If I was asking a question, I would rather get one or two informed answers rather than a dozen "It might/could be...." answers that you will see when people don't give any tank info. You don't have to understand the numbers the test provides, but providing them will probably help you get the answer you need from someone who does.
 
While I am not saying test results can not be helpful, I am saying that for most situations a valid answer can be found without these factors. See the post by Finzzup here to see how a newbie views these types of things. I will bet that if you asked the right questions you could come up with the right answer for them without these values. I think that the first things that need to be asked are the basics. I think there is a danger here of portraying the hobby as being more complicated then it is. We also need to think of all the people who may read these posts but never actually post a question. They may be researching setting up a tank and get discouraged by what they read. I fear that there may be an idea that fishkeeping is overly technical. I am not bashing anybodies way of doing things, in fact it would be a terrible shame if advice could not be found, but I do believe we need to keep it simple. Think about when you started and how overwhelming you may have found it. Finzzup made a very good analogy between driving a car and fish keeping. You do not need to know exactly how it works to use it. Perhaps a sticky could be made for people who need these questions answered, and telling them what info is needed. Basic info like their experience level, tank size, fish species and numbers, water change schedule, feeding, lighting, heating and temperature, and what the problem they are having is. Perhaps then they would not feel intimidated and others may come forward as well. If after this an answer can not be simply found, then step up to the more technical aspect of the hobby. I sometimes think some folks get carried away with relying on the numbers. In a reef tank I can see where all these parameters are very important but I believe they are far less so in freshwater. Obviously this is somewhat contraversial to some people so everybody please do not be offended by what I have said. I am only stating my own thoughts here and they are not meant to tick any body off. Just something to ponder, Frank.
 
Darkangel,

Don't forget that this board is also a forum for members to hone their peer review techniques. Often those who respond to a post are in a way seeking additional information of their own.
If I post a response to someone's help call making a suggestion or seeking additional information and someone (well, I won't name names), says to me, 'Uh, famman you're missing the obvious, or you are making a silly mistake...' etcetera, I learn from that exchange and the thread author also learns even more from the discussion.
Sometimes the newbie gets trampled all over during the whole discussion, but providing a Newbie forum seems to answer that objection.
Through this board, the general knowledge of all the users is raised by the vigorous exchange of experience, knowledge and opinions. I have learned far more through my association with this board than I ever could have on my own in the same amount of time.
So in a way, the questions regarding ph, ammo, nitrI, nitrA, etc are posted to the author as well as the board in general.
good luck
:)
 
Originally posted by Kit Walker
Perhaps when LFS sell an aquarium package they should include a basic water testing kit.

I know some testing kits are complex. But there are a lot more user friendly color matching ones on the market at an acceptable cost as opposed to the cost of restocking a tank.
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The LFS I work at sells all aquarium kits with a basic freshwater test kit that tests for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and ph. The package instructions are very clear and we go through the basic testing process and info on cycling with all customers before sending them home, whether they like it or not. Believe me, if some of the newbies I've dealt with can handle working the test kits, anyone can; I think monkeys would rate higher on an intelligence test than some of my "regulars" - customers I deal with on a regular basis.

My first piece of advice to any newbie starting a tank is to get a basic test kit (at the very least ammonia and nitrates). You can get small test kits for under $15, which really isn't that much compared to the amount of money you would waste replacing your fish every time they died from bad water levels. When a customer comes in and tells me their water levels are X, X, and X amounts and their ph level has been at X for Z number of weeks, it helps to pinpoint the problem much more quickly. Even just having a customer come in and say "My nitrates were medium pink and they're usually clear, what should I do?" lets me guess where their levels are and I can tell them to do a water change and test again in a couple days, then come back to get new fish if their water tests out "clear".

I agree asking for a lot of chemical information the minute a newbie posts is not only not helping the situation, but also scaring the newbie! :eek: But, I also believe advising a newbie to go spend the $15 on a test kit will help out with diagnosing problems and save them money in the long run.

Good point darkangel! :cool: :)
 
Speaking as the "newbie" that I am, I will definitely admit I was totally overwhelmed when I went searching for information on the cycling of a new aquarium. But, I also know that people refer to their experience and that there is obviously something to it! :)

Someone mentioned getting a basic test kit -- I didn't know there were 'kits' to purchase! I was picturing myself wandering down to the science lab at the college (where I HATE to go but I do because I like the fish tanks and the pet Guinea Pigs) and putting on goggles and using test tubes and smoking, boiling glass jars to do all these tests on my little bitty aquarium!

I absolutely, positively appreciate all the help I've gained from this site and I did read it for WEEKS before finally posting! Reading all the threads here is what encouraged me to get a tank for my Betta. A small move on my part, but already I am eyeing that old 55 gallon tank that's been sitting in our basement for 10 years! My hubby always took care of it when we had it set up at our house in San Antonio -- I had no clue what to do with it!

If you were to ask me for help with your web page or how to write html or javascripts or applets, I would be so thrilled to help you and in my excitement I can guarantee you I will LOSE you in about 5 minutes! haha! I forget that some people are so new with computers they panic when "the mouse is about to fall off the mousepad" -- and yet other times, people can keep right up to speed with what I'm talking about...

Anyway -- I appreciate ALL the help I can get even when it is overwhelming. It was nice to see someone understands this!

(I know -- now you're all thinking "I wish she'd continued to read instead of posting....") -- I get that a lot. :D
 
I like the car analogy, too. Some people just want their car to go. But if you know absolutely nothing about cars, when you have a problem you're reduced to telling the mechanic things like "it makes a funny noise like grrawwk grawwk everytime I put it in reverse" and you're totally at the mercy of the mechanic.

Fishkeeping's very similar. If someone comes here complaining that their fish is sick or acting funny, we can make all kinds of guesses about the possible causes and some of them will probably be correct. We can also give some suggestions of effective treatments that tend to work for many problems ("change water"). Without some basic test info, though, much of that is shooting in the dark. Even worse, without a basic understanding of what happens in our fish tanks, we are all at the mercy of authoritative-sounding (but often clueless) LFS employees who always seem to have some product that will "take care of that problem."

I'd rather know what's going on, and, truth be told, I have less inclination to help if I know the person wants a quick fix without any understanding of the problem. Why? Because odds are good they'll be back with a similar problem soon. It's hard to get better at something if you're not learning from your experience.

Jim
 
I ask the "hard questions" routinely. That will give me some lead as to what the status quo is in the tank. I am not here as a tank maintenance service or a LFS. I'm here to help folks learn about their tanks, what happens and why. If posters want a quick fix only and are not intrested in learning, I have nothing for them. If they are willing and anxious to learn how our semi-closed systems operate, I'll work them as much as possible and as long as it takes.

So overall my attitude and aims are similar to JSchmidt's, I'm just not quite as nice about it.
 
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