Yet another inquiry into fishless cycling

[gsk177]

Yet another inquiry into fishless cycling (LOG TO FOLLOW)

OK, just did my research on the topic and want to give a run down to see if I have everything understood.

I am going to be using an extra 55g tank complete with everything I need.
THe tank has been disassembled for 2 weeks and was COMPLETELY drained of all water. When I stir the gravel around in the bottom of the tank, it is still damp, but I can not find any standing puddles of water anywhere. There is also no odd smells coming from the gravel or filter media (which I plan to rinse thouroughly under hot water.

I have 4 larger bags of media floating around in my other in use tanks to help get them seeded. 2 bags have been floating for a week, the other 2 for 2 days. I plan to use all of these bags in my new tank as well as one sponge from a very established Aquaclear 500. (Dont worry, I have a total of 4 sponges in use on a 55g right now so I doubt removing 1 will shock my existing tank.) I also plan to sqeeze all my existing sponges in all of my tanks into the new tank once it gets set up.

OK, now for the run down.

My tap water is at Ph 7.6 GH 0 and KH ~5 with no nitrAtes or nitrItes and no ammonia.

I plan on filling the tank up and using only Wardleys Chlor out to remove chlorine and chloramine. I understand that using other conditioners such as Prime and Stress Zyme will actually null the effects of the ammonia I plan on adding and end up hurting my cycling process.

The ammonia I am adding states the following ingrediants and is labeled Clear Ammonia. (Soft water, and ammonia) It does not foam when shaken.

I plan on adding 6 tsps immediately to the water, then testing it in a few hours to get an NH3 reading, then log that #. If my NH3 reading is ~5ppm then I want to continue to add that exact ammont of NH3 until my nitrItes start to appear. If the NH3 reading is >5 or <5 I want to adjust accoringly my ammount of added ammonia. Once NitrItes appear, I should cut my NH3 input in 1/2. Then continue to add ammonia until, after 24 hours from addition, the NH3 and nitrIte levels are at 0. Then do a big water changes and add fish.

I also understand that I should NOT change water during the fishless cycling, correct?

If I have everything understood correctly, I am expecting this to take around 7 days since I am adding existing biologicals in moderate quantities. Nonetheless, however long it take is how long it takes.

Please let me know if Ive got this thing understood.

 

[Kasakato]

Your water change at the end of the cycle should be about 50%+. Try not to mess around with the gravel and filter bacause the bacteria is still growing. No water changes should be done during the cycle bbecause you are removing to much good bacteria. If you want you could rais the temp. in the tank to about 82*F because bacteria grows better at that temp.

So far your off to a great start and you are undersanding everything. Good Luck and Have Fun!

 

[carpguy]

OK, just did my research on the topic and want to give a run down to see if I have everything understood…

There is also no odd smells coming from the gravel or filter media (which I plan to rinse thouroughly under hot water.

Thoroughly rinsing under hot water will probably kill whatever harmful or beneficial bacteria are left in there. After 2 weeks without food there may not be all that many beneficial bacteria left. Hard to say.

I have 4 larger bags of media floating around in my other in use tanks to help get them seeded. I plan to use all of these bags in my new tank as well as one sponge from a very established Aquaclear 500.

Seeding is always a great thing to do whenever possible. Yes, it will help speed the process.

OK, now for the run down.

I understand that using other conditioners such as Prime and Stress Zyme will actually null the effects of the ammonia I plan on adding and end up hurting my cycling process.

Not true. They may mess up certain tests, but most (all?) conditioners leave the ammonia in a state which remains available to the bacteria Prime, StressZyme and Amquel all leave the ammonia available to the bacteria and will not hurt your cycle. Personally, I'd use Prime or Amquel before I'd use Wardley's.

The ammonia I am adding states the following ingrediants and is labeled Clear Ammonia. (Soft water, and ammonia) It does not foam when shaken.

Sounds like the sauce.

I plan on adding 6 tsps immediately to the water, then testing it in a few hours to get an NH3 reading, then log that #.

6 teaspoons (2 tblspns, btw) sounds like a lot. I'd start testing a lot lower. Ammonia concentration varies from one source to another so its always hard to say, but thats a large dose.

If my NH3 reading is ~5ppm then I want to continue to add that exact ammont of NH3 until my nitrItes start to appear. If the NH3 reading is >5 or <5 I want to adjust accoringly my ammount of added ammonia.

I know its not the way its typically written up, but you want to keep your ammonia at about 4 or 5 ppm. You do not want to keep dosing your tank with that initial dose. You will quickly reach levels that none of the beneficial bacteria can tolerate. Personally I think 5 is high and would shoot for 4.

Once NitrItes appear, I should cut my NH3 input in 1/2. Then continue to add ammonia until, after 24 hours from addition, the NH3 and nitrIte levels are at 0.

Once you see nitrItes, reduce the ammonia level in the tank to 2 or 2.5 ppm. The NitrIte eaters are more sensitive to the ammonia than the Ammonia eaters are and will be happier with the lower level. Not a bad idea to reseed at this point since the elevated levels in stage 1 will have killed off any NitrIte eaters from the initial seed.

Your water change at the end of the cycle should be about 50%+.…

No water changes should be done during the cycle bbecause you are removing to much good bacteria.

I also understand that I should NOT change water during the fishless cycling, correct?

Not true! If you need to do water changes during a fishless to make up for an overdose then do them. There is no harm in doing a water change during a cycle, fishless or fishy. The bacteria are on things and are not free-floating. When the cycle is done you should have very elevated NitrAte levels. Change out enough to get your NitrAtes back down below 20 ppm. If that means a 95% change then it means a 95% change.

I am expecting this to take around 7 days since I am adding existing biologicals in moderate quantities. Nonetheless, however long it take is how long it takes.

Seeding should help but it takes as long as it takes.

HTH and Good luck with it

(Shorter questions with fewer parts will generate better responses)

 

[gsk177]

Sounds like I've got the jist of it other than whether or not to do water changes. Sounds like if I have added the "right" amount of ammonia, then I need not do water changes.

My original post was not as much a question in parts, rather it was a question in whole. I basically just wanted to see if I had the whole fishless cycling thing understood, and it seems like I do.
The other parts of the post were more just explaining what I was going to do, because I am not so much "starting out from stratch" since I have some seeded media.

Thank you both though for your input and affirmation. I am going to post a daily log of testing for what its worth.

 

[gsk177]

Day 1 Fishless Cycle (5 hours after tank setup and NH3 addition

After setting everything up and using the seeding methods described earlier here are my specs.
Added 6 tsp. NH3 to 55g tank minus gravel (1inch depth) = ~52g water

Ph 7.6
NO2 0
NO3 10ppm
NH3 ~4ppm
Gh 0
Kh 3
Tank Temp ~72F (Thought I had a spare heater that WORKED) New heater to arrive by Thursday.

 

[TKOS]

Watch your pH. If it starts to drop drastically then doing a water change will be a good idea. pH changes can affect the growth rate of the bacteria. That tank temp will do fine for now, but as always the hotter the water the quicker the bacteria will grow.

 

[ArkyLady]

As was stated by others, the bacteria you want are not free floating and will be firmly attached to your filter media, gravel, decorations, etc. Proper water changes (meaning same temp, pH and chlorine free) will not cause any harm to your cycle. If bacteria were removed in an amount large enough to matter during a water change, then everytime we did our regular water change maintenance on all our tanks we'd see a mini-cycle now wouldn't we?

Another area of fishless cycling I see a lot of people get on the wrong track with is the addition of ammonia. You don't want to add 5ppm worth of ammonia to your tank every day, the goal is to get the ammonia in the 3-5ppm range each day during the cycle process. In the beginning, you don't have any ammonia consuming bacteria established (in the case of seeding you will jump start this process of course though), so you add ammonia to the 5ppm level on day one and it may take several days before this level starts to drop off. If you continue adding the same amount of ammonia every day even though no ammonia is being consumed, eventually you will have a LOT of ammonia in there!

Do your testing around the same time each day and add ammonia as needed to get it in the 3-5ppm range (lower end of the scale is all you need once the cycle is progressing nicely).

 

[gsk177]

Day 2 test results

This is gonna be a short post.

No changes anywhere. Nada. Zip.

Seems very odd to me that NONE of the ammonia has been lowered even using that much seeding.

More results to follow in the days ahead.

 

[gsk177]

Day 3 test results

PH has dropped to 7.4 from 7.6
NH3 is at 2ppm
NO2 0
NO3 10ppm

Added 1tlbs NH3 to tank to raise it to 4ppm

 

[JSchmidt]

Not true. They may mess up certain tests, but most (all?) conditioners leave the ammonia in a state which remains available to the bacteria Prime, StressZyme and Amquel all leave the ammonia available to the bacteria and will not hurt your cycle. Personally, I'd use Prime or Amquel before I'd use Wardley's.

Actually, this is partly incorrect. Amquel and Prime will mess up normal ammonia tests but leave the ammonia available to nitrifiers. StressZyme is one of those 'bacteria in a bottle' preparations that has ammonia-eating bacteria, although not the kind that live permanently in our tanks (that's why you have to re-dose). StressZyme bacteria may actually outcompete the permanent nitrifiers for food, lengthening the cycle. (StressCoat, which is similarly named, is primarily a dechlorinator and won't interfere with a fishless cycle.)

Other than that, good advice.

Jim