Five Young Angels Need Help

[Cichlid Woman]

I just picked up five silver angels at Superpet--the guy ordered them for me, and they're going to need help. I bought them because: (1) they're the type I wanted (silvers), (2) the price was right ($2.35 each), and--perhaps the worst reason--(3) I want them to make it. (I know you're not supposed to buy fish that don't look optimal, but I couldn't walk away from that tank ...) This store just opened a month ago, and their tanks look terrible. The manager told me it's because they just fired their fish maintenance guy and the new one hasn't shown up to work yet. Hmmmmmm.

These angels were in a shipment that "had been on the truck quite awhile" and had been unpacked for about an hour. They were in with larger angels who looked quite battered (frayed fins, some body hits, etc.). The ones I got (about the size of a quarter) were the best looking of the lot, but their eyes aren't red, and one was laying on the bottom of the bag by the time I got them home. They're going to need the best care I can give them.

I've got the bag sitting in the tank right now, and in a few minutes I'll put some tank water in there. I already squirted some StressCoat in their bag, which seemed to help a lot. There's no visible sign of disease or injury, they just seem very stressed out. They perked up a bit as soon as I put their bag into my tank--all that greenery and other fishies swimming around.

No, I don't have an isolation tank. My tank currently has some residual Ich Guard in it from a successful treatment about a week ago. All tank inhabitants are currently fine.

Is this the stupidest thing I've ever done? Am I going to deeply regret this in short order? Or have I saved five beautiful fish that I've been looking for and waiting for a long time? Argghhhhh.

Help? Suggestions?

Thanks,

-- Pat

[Pootspete]

Hi Pat!

What a big heart you have for these Angels. I am sorry I do not have the answer here, but I know for a fact you will get an answer from some knowledgable people here soon.

I just wanted to say how thoughtful you were in taking these guys!

[pinballqueen]

We have a store like that around here too. There's not a single tank there that DOESN'T have ich....

If at all possible, try to find a way to isolate the fish. If not, just load the tank with stresscoat and keep a close eye on them. They sound like they're just stressed, and it was very big of you to take them in. Hopefully, they'll do fine and give you greedy (but appreciative) looks every time you pass by the tank in the near future....

Good luck to you!

[Cichlid Woman]

Oh thanks, you guys, because everybody on this forum is so knowledgeable and I know that strictly speaking I shouldn't have done it. I was expecting to get pretty (justifiably) ripped for bringing those guys home. So THANKS for the kind words!!!

Update: They've been in the bag about 45 minutes now (two infusions of tank water) and they're all waiting expectantly to go into their new home (all up in the bag looking out). I can't isolate them, so ... here goes ... say a fishy prayer!!

-- Pat

[Pootspete]

Thanks for the update. Keep us posted!

[Cichlid Woman]

Update: The five angels are okay so far; they appear a little weak. They're swimming around a little, but not much, and they didn't eat when I fed flake to the rest of the tank.

Problem: the rogue male krib. (A few weeks ago, I posted that I had two krib pairs in my tank and the dominant pair wasn't mating. I suspected it was because of the non-mating other pair of kribs in the tank. My plan was to give them away so the dominant pair would have free range, so to speak. I was able to catch the female, and I gave her to an LFS, but I was unable to catch the non-dominant male because of all the plants. He's still in there, and he is now the "rogue male.") He's nipping at the new angels. I grabbed a net and went for him, but he (as usual) evaded me at the back of the tank under the heater. He's slinked out and nipped at the angels about three times now. I don't know if they'll make it through the night with that going on.

I'm going to try a bit of frozen food to see if I can get them to eat.

-- Pat

[Cichlid Woman]

Update: they wouldn't eat.

One of them was vertical in the water--hanging toward the top of the tank, nose pointing up, tail down. That's not good, is it. I squirted some more StressCoat over him. It seems to have helped. He's not quite so vertical, but he still doesn't seem to steady on his ... er ... feet. The rest seem to be starting to check out the tank a bit.

I sure hope they make it. The "rogue" krib has settled down, as far as I can tell.

-- Pat

[Pootspete]

Pat,

How are the Angel's this morning? And did you sleep at all last night worrying about them?:(

[Cichlid Woman]

Two dead, three alive this morning; two of them aren't eating, but the other one is, a little bit. Those two are looking pretty weak. One is hanging out near the top of the filter intake tube at the corner of the tank; the other one is out in the open, but he's swimming kind of listlessly. The third one is swimming around almost normally and looking with great interest at the cinnamon dwarf guarami now residing in a large net at the top of the tank. (He's been nipping at the two weak angels, so he can sit in there in the net awhile.)

I've never noticed the cinnamon nipping before. Is he doing this because the two angels are dying and he knows it but I don't, or are dwarf cinnamons nippy?!

I fed Tetramin flake this morning.

Suggestions welcome!! And thanks for any advice/guidance you can give.

-- Pat

[Pootspete]

Hi Pat,

Sorry about your two losses this morning. I know you are trying to do all that you can to save the others.

I believe that the fin nipping of the other Angels is probably due to their weakness.:( I do not know specifically if dwarf cinnamons are nippers.

[Cichlid Woman]

Thanks for helping, Pootspete. Two of the three are now staying at the top of the tank, angled slightly upward, noses almost out of the water. None of the other fish in the tank are acting this way. So I looked up diseases to see if there was something specific I could do. Look what I found at a fish disease site:

"Symptom: Colors of the fish become more intense or really bright, panting, and hanging just below the water surface. Cause: nitrite/nitrate poisoning."

That is EXACTLY what these two angels are doing, but the third one isn't. I am angry. The bags those fish were in must have been loaded with ammonia or God knows what. I know the problem isn't in my tank, because I did a regular water change four days ago and no other fish has the problem.

If that's what's wrong with these two angels, will the clean water in my tank eventually bring them around, or are they goners?

Oh I'm so angry. That fish suppliers do this stuff to their animals. And I'm just as angry at Superpets for encouraging it. The guy there told me, "Oh, when we get a shipment of angels, we always lose 12 or 14 of 'em." No concern whatever shown by this guy.

Okay, is there anything I can do now? Would these fish still be exhibiting signs of nitrite/nitrate poisoning after a night in a clean tank? Or is it something else, do you think?

THANKS AGAIN,

-- Pat

[Pootspete]

That is a total disgrace these pet stores and owners to have no concern about these animals and you have every right to be angry. Sadly, that does not change the situation that you are in now.

From the little knowledge I know and even you said that the tanks at the store were awful, we know for sure that the water that these little guys were sitting in was toxic.

Pat, you may get more suggestions if you post this in the Cichlid forums.

[Cichlid Woman]

Thanks, I'll try that.

-- Pat

[Decz]

From what I understand, Angels are like Betta's, in that they have a lung, and need to go to the surface and stick their "noses" out of the water for a gulp of air. So, by the sounds of it, they are doing the right thing. I would be worried if they didnt hang out at the surface during this weak transition.

I have been looking around, trying to find more information on this, but haven't been able to. Anyone?

[Cichlid Woman]

The remaining two angels are doing better--swimming around the tank, and they've stopped hanging near the surface. They still don't look too good, though. (Decz, angels are not a labyrinth fish like a betta--they're cichlids, if I understand it right.)

I believe the other three died of ammonia poisoning due to negligence on the part of the shipper and/or the store. This is based on their symptoms, the brief amount of time I had them before they died, and the general chronic condition of the tanks at the store. And they're not the only ones, based on the employee's statement regarding the large quantity of these fish they "lose" on every shipment. I'm also basing this on other customers I've seen there who are returning bodies and demanding refunds for other types of fish that have died.

I left a message at the store for the owner to call me regarding possible criminal treatment of his animals, fish being as much an "animal" as are the guinea pigs or puppies he also sells.

I'm not doing this because I'm looking for something to fuss over or threaten someone with; I have a life. I am just sick and tired of seeing fish mistreated by sellers, and the attitude of this particular store in regard to that is callous, to put the kindest spin on it. Enough.

This guy is going to clean up his act or I'm going to take further action.

--Pat

[appaloosatb]

Kudos on taking action against the pet store owner, Pat! I wish you luck with him and luck with your remaining two fish.

[pinballqueen]

So sorry to hear about the losses...I can guarantee that ammonia poisoning is the culprit. Angels are a little finicky about their water anyhow, and it's really sad that the fish store doesn't know or care about what these pets need.

I think it's a great idea to call the aspca or something about the way this place treats their animals, since if they treat their fish that way, what about everything else? I went to a pet store (that will remain unnamed because it is a small place in a small town....) that the fish were in terrible condition, and upon further inspection, the rat cages and hamsters had ants in them from neglect of cleaning....it was gross. My ex-husband wouldn't let me call anyone about this, not even the BBB. He was afraid of getting someone's dander up and getting into lawsuits with these people...I wish I had called anyway, looking back on it....

[Cichlid Woman]

Update: two of them appear to have made it! One was swimming all over the tank last night; the other one was not zipping around, but they're both alive this morning.

The store owner has not returned my call. The word's apparently already out about this store, though. I was at another lfs yesterday getting a CO2 Fizz Box (see that post!), and as soon as I brought up "other lfs" he mentioned the name of this store. He said he heard it's really bad, but the guy depends "mainly on his puppy business."

I'll be taking the three dead fish back soon (they're in a freezer bag); maybe I can talk with him then. I want to keep it reasonable and constructive--anybody got any suggestions as to what I can say that will move this guy?

-- Pat

[pinballqueen]

First of all, don't be threatening in your approach. I would walk in, explain about your dead fish, and get that taken care of first. Then maybe you could casually mention to him that you've seen he's been having a lot of problems with his tanks, especially his angels, and that you'd be willing to do some research for him to see if maybe you could help him cut down on his losses and save him some money from having to return fish...

Or you could ask him if he needs help with his water maintenance. If he actually cares about the welfare of his livestock, he might actually welcome the help. He might just be unaware of how to fix the situation....Don't be too quick to call him an a-hole, because he might just be uninformed about the animals he sells.

If he looks at you like you are being hateful and gets upset at the very idea that a customer knows more than he does about fish he sells or gets angry at you, call the BBB. They can put you in touch with who to call and get the guy shut down for animal abuse (if the laws in your area concerning this apply to aquatic animals as well...) The least they could get him for would be a health code (for having unsafe water conditions in his tanks that someone may accidentally come into contact with...)

Good luck, and I hope the first scenario is what happens....

[Pootspete]

Pat, glad to hear that two of the fish that you rescued the other day are still with you.

You are doing the right thing about exposing that store and the owner! He knows he is guilty, and is in every way trying to avoid a confrontation.

All the best!

[Cichlid Woman]

Thanks, you guys--Pinball, that is the approach I will definitely take. Pootspete, I tend to agree with you; my gut reaction to not having my phone call returned was that the guy is avoiding me. But for now, I'm going to stick with Pinball's approach if it kills me ...

I now have four angels to return to the store--another one died last night.

The remaining one swims around well, but is not eating!! Hasn't eaten since yesterday morning, when he nibbled a tiny bit of algae flake. That's all I've seen him eat since I got him on Friday. Have his internal organs been damaged by the ammonia poisoning so that he can't eat? What should I do? (I tried a frozen "community" food (shrimp, krill, etc.) the first night I had them, and he didn't eat then, either ...)

-- Pat

[Pootspete]

Thanks for the update Pat! All the best with your endeavors with this situation. You know you have a lot of people behind you!

[firetank]

hey cichlid woman,

just like to say respect for doing your best in trying to save the poor things,

if you dont get a good response , crucify the uncaring *%&£.


well done for trying.




:)

[appaloosatb]

Sorry to hear about the 4th angel. :( I would try some live blackworms for the remaining one... whenever I get a fish that won't eat, that seems to do the trick unless they're on the brink of death and nothing's going to bring them back. Live shrimp may also work, and if no live food is obtainable you could also try the frozen food again.

Good luck!

[Cichlid Woman]

Thanks--I'll try that tonight. I'm planning on paying the store owner a visit after Christmas, if not tomorrow.

Thanks for the input, guys.

-- Pat

[pinballqueen]

It's beginning to sound a little like the fish were not only poisoned but starved as well....usually, a fish will eat itself to death (literally, eat until they explode...), unless, of course, they have already been starved to the point that their body has started to turn on itself. Personally, I always make sure to make the lfs feed the fish in front of me so I can see that they were not in an abusive situation....

So sorry to hear about the 4th one....maybe the other can still be helped....

Merry Christmas, anyway....

[Cichlid Woman]

The fifth one died last night.

I went to the pet store today; was told the owner wasn't there. I gave the bag with the five fish to the employee in the fish dept. He said he couldn't help me, because they don't have any more angels right now. (The tank I saw on Friday must have had 50 angels crammed into it.) I told him these had apparently died of ammonia poisoning. He said, "I don't think so. Looks like a couple of them are missing eyes." I told him two of them had been in my tank all night after dying, that I didn't want any more fish from there, and that I just wanted my money back. When I asked, he didn't know if the owner had gotten my phone message.

He called the fish-department manager to the front for the refund. I asked him if the owner had gotten my phone message. He said he'd make sure the owner got my phone message. Then he wanted to know what the problem was. I said the fish had died of ammonia poisoning shortly after I got them, and I wanted to talk to the owner about how the fish were being taken care of. He invited me not to shop there anymore. I said, "No, this has to do with how animals are being treated." He gulped and said, "How do we know YOU didn't kill these fish?" I said it would probably be better if I talked to the owner, in view of how this conversation was going. I wrote down my name and phone number and left it with him; I also got my money back.

Doesn't look good so far. I wasn't angry when I talked to them, I was quiet but firm. They both got defensive and combative. Bummer.

-- Pat

[firetank]

sorry to hear pat....

HAMMER EM.

:mad:

[Sensei_the_dojo]

Somewhere in the thread I read that the owner of another store claimed that the pet store in question made most of its money on puppies. That alone is a BAD sign. NO REPUTABLE DOG BREEDERS sell through pet stores. If you don't know what I'm talking about do a google search on the term "puppy mills". It only stands to reason that someone who runs a pet store that sells puppies is more concerned with turning a buck than with the health and welfare of any of its critters whether they have fins, feathers or fur.

I am truly sorry about the loss of your fish. But the only way to fix the problem with this pet store is to shut it down.