Help my goldfish!

[momnatur]

One of my comets, Monstro, is having terrible trouble. He's been slowly deteriorating in health (he's at least five), and now he can barely swim. He spends most of his time on one side, and his body is slightly twisted. One of his eyes is bulging out. I have him in a little insert in the big tank so he's close to the surface, but I don't know that it'll do any good. Does anyone have any idea what could be wrong with him and what I can possibly do to help him? If there's nothing I can do, I don't want him to suffer anymore, so what should I do in that case? Poor guy.

Andrea Z and the Z Zoo :confused:

[aquariumfishguy]

Well first of all, many things can be going on. What are your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels? I assume this tank is cycled in which case you wouldn't have ammonia or nitrites... but what are your nitrates?

This could be a swim bladder issue as well as a water quality problem. What do you feed him?

Five years isn't old for Goldfish, which can live for decades.

[momnatur]

Yeah, I didn't think 5 was very old. I have no idea what my nitrate levels are, but my three other golds are just fine (I can go out and buy a nitrate-testing kit, if I find I don't have one). I feed them all goldfish flake food in the a.m. and pelletted goldfish food in the p.m. I don't recall the brandname off the top of my head, but the jars of it are white with a bubble-top cap. I'm very consistent in the brand and feeding times. I use a Penguin filter, it's a 20-gal tank, and I have a bubble curtain in back. As I said, my other golds are doing just fine, so I'm not sure what's up with Monstro.

His back does look like he has some sort of scoliosis, but I don't know if that can be a symptom of something else, like a swim bladder issue, as you say.

If anyone can offer anything I can do, I'll be checking the board frequently. Thanks.

Andrea Z and the Z Zoo

[aquariumfishguy]

It could also be stunting symptoms...

... you mentioned a totally of 4 goldfish in a 20 gallon? You should (ideally) have a 50-60 gallon tank with 4 goldfish.

Definitely test for nitrates, they are very important at this point. How often do you do water changes/gravel vacuuming?

[momnatur]

I try to do a vacuuming and 1/4 tank change each week, but it's more often every other week or so. I do know that a larger tank would be better, but I can't afford one right now (I'm in the goldfish trap that I'm sure you're familiar with: I bought goldfish from a pet store, not knowing that they need a lot of space, so here they are in a 20 gal). Still, it's better than the original 10 gal they were in. Three of the four are about 2-3 inches long, and one is 1-2 inches. I also have a clown plec and two bettas (one male, one female) in the tank. Both bettas are on the small side (the male is barely larger than the female). Again, not ideal, but they do get along, so at least that's something.

Am I doing the right thing, having Monstro in the suspended separator in the large tank so he's close to the surface? He can hardly feed, either, which of course is contributing to his decline.

Andrea Z and the Z Zoo

[lark]

If you still have the ten gallon the right thing to do is to move him by himself into it and do daily large water changes and treatment there. That many fish, especially goldfish, is crowded for a 20 gallon.



Also, though seeming how your other fish aren't affected(yet?) I think this is not a factor. I just want to warn you that electrical current in the water can cause deformities like scoliosis. Make sure your equipment is properly grounded!

[momnatur]

Wow. Okay. I think everything is grounded, but that's good to keep an eye on (makes sense since no one likes to be swimming when lightning hits the water).

I can certainly move him to a 10 gal by himself. How on earth do I get him to eat, though? He barely manages to grab stuff, and it has to be right in front of his face for him to even see it. Like I mentioned in my first post, he's pretty much on one side, and one of his eyes is bulging out.


Andrea Z and the Z Zoo

[Cearbhaill]

If the fish is suffering I would euthanize with clove oil mixed in water.

[aquariumfishguy]

I thought it was supposed to be Vodka? I freeze all mine anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.

[Cearbhaill]

Clove oil if you have it- freezer if you don't.
Never tried vodka- me, I'd drink it after performing the procedure...

[aquariumfishguy]

For some reason I was thinking you mix the clove oil in the vodka. Not sure.

... I love liquor, so ITA - although I can think of much better drinks than Vodka. He he.

[LongTime]

You do mix the clove oil and the vodka because the vodka helps the clove oil mix with the water.

This site says just use clove oil: http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/tom06.html

This site says mix 2 parts clove oil to 8 parts vodka and not to increase the vodka because it increases the suffering of the fish.
http://www.bettasrus.com/disease/euthanasia.htm
It also has a nice discussion on the various pros and cons of other methods.


Sorry for your loss.


:sad

[MamaBarb]

Why not drink the vodka before doing the deed????


Anyway Momnatur - I had a longfin rosy barb once that had the symptons you describe - barely swimming on his side - spine bent like 60 degrees - not eating - and he also started losing his bright rosy color. I couldn't find anything on any forums that could explain this, so I just put him in a Q tank and started treating with Aquarisol and Melafix, and stopped feeding. In about 3 days, he started to straighten out a little, and I resumed light feeding. After about 10 days, he was fine and I put him back in the other tank.

He lived for about a year - and I had him for a few years before that.

You could try this, in combination with a broad spectrum antibiotic if you like. Otherwise, I agree - euthanasia is it.

[momnatur]

Okay. Even in the hanging tank insert, Monstro isn't able to feed--he can't swim up to the top. It looks like he isn't able to use his tail at all, which of course means he flaps like mad with his fins and doesn't get much of anywhere.

MamaBarb, do you think it's still possible to try the meds you mentioned, or does everyone think that euthanasia is still the best route for him?

What makes me crazy is that I can see my lively, happy fish is still in there, frustrated by his body's lack of response. One of my rabbits (my sweet China) and my grandmother both went through a similar torture, and I hate seeing it. But if he can get better ...

I have another question, about the other fish in the tank. Jaws (another comet) looks like she's pregnant, and I know golds aren't livebreeders. She's a little bulgy around the middle, so I'm freaking out thinking she has dropsy. But her eyes aren't bulgy at all, and she's behaving normally. Is she just a chunk?

Gah!

Andrea Z and the Z Zoo

[Cearbhaill]

What makes me crazy is that I can see my lively, happy fish is still in there, frustrated by his body's lack of response.
Since you asked...

I've worked in the animal industry for over thirty years, and towards the end of life one of two things happens. Sometimes the mind goes to heck and the body remains fully functional for years- these animals can hang on indefinitely. As long as the keeper can meet their physical demands the animals themselves are fine- they haven't the brain cells to notice much of what is happening.

Conversely- the body can fail and you have a fully cognizant animal slowly suffering the decline of its physical self. These are the heartbreakers. My own opinion (and this differs greatly from individual to individual- no one can force ones beliefs upon another in these matters) is that if I have an animal that I love and cared for, gently releasing it from suffering is the last gift I am able to offer.

My sympathies- I have been there many times before. It's the down side of choosing to own animals.

[momnatur]

Toni, I totally agree, and I've faced this decision before with some of my other pets, including the dog I grew up with and my sweet China rabbit. It's excruciating, but I agree that it's part of being responsible for an animal you've agreed to care for.

I think Monstro is at that point. :sad

So, to euthanize one 3-inch fish, how much clove oil and how much vodka? I can buy clove oil at the local co-op in a 1/2 oz bottle or a 10ml bottle. Vodka I can get in the little "sample" bottles.

Andrea Z and the Z Zoo
(which, btw, includes (at the moment) four goldfish, two bettas, one clown pleco, five guinea pigs, four dogs, one cat, three rabbits, thirteen rats, and one husband ;) but as of Sunday it will have one less goldfish <:( and four African pygmy dormice)

[Bigguppy]

You must check your water conditions, them might not be very good. Dropy is possible, goldfish get bloated alot.

[Cearbhaill]

Pond Rx (http://www.pondrx.com/shop/details.php?productId=50&catId=3) suggests 5 drops of clove oil per gallon to anesthetize, then freezing.
Alternatively, I found:
"The euthanasia recipe is 1 ml clove oil, 9 ml vodka. Mix this together and pour into 1 gallon of water."

[LongTime]

Originally posted by Cearbhaill
Pond Rx (http://www.pondrx.com/shop/details.php?productId=50&catId=3) suggests 5 drops of clove oil per gallon to anesthetize, then freezing.
Alternatively, I found:
"The euthanasia recipe is 1 ml clove oil, 9 ml vodka. Mix this together and pour into 1 gallon of water."

Up the clove oil. Vodka is only to help the clove oil mix with the water. You don't want to put the fish in a strong alcohol solution. I would go with 2 ml clove to 8 mil vodka.