Euthanizing Anabantoidei - Betta Fish

[Roan Art]

I started this thread so we wouldn't hijack the sick betta thread. The following is from that thread:


I'm hijacking the post a little:
garlic: can is be fed straight up or should it be in oil? Could I just cut a hunk off a clove and pop it in the tank?

clove oil: Is a general anesthetic, so it would slow down the outside and through oral consumption the inside right? Bettas still do use their gills too. Wouldn't it work? I thought the same about hte breathing at first, but then I thought some more and it seems like you could still use it.

I am looking at it from a technical standpoint, not humane.Lisa,
I'm going to start a new thread about this as I don't think this is a good place. I mean, he's not gone yet and maybe we shouldn't hijack his help thread.

Roan

[Roan Art]

Okay, here's a copy of a post that was made to the Yahoo! Rainbow Fish Mailing List:



> There is a much easier way to euthanize fish in a very easy way (and I
> also don't support the author's view that fish can feel pain in the
> human sense as they lack receptors for that, they indeed can feel a kind
> of chemical pain by nocireceptors): clove oil. A few drops will calm
> them down to unconsciousness; a few more will let them sleep forever.

I tried clove oil once on a female Betta, which had a torn-out eye due
to a fight with another female. I put it in a small container with
about 1 liter of water and then added 4 drops of clove oil. After 10
minutes still nothing happened, except that the fish starting coming
up to the surface for some air. But when it touched the oil drops they
seemed to hurt it because it would jolt right to the bottom and then
it would twitch a few times. It looked horrible. But there was no way
turning back, so I added a few more drops and tried to mix them with
the water.
The fish jumped from left to right and top to bottom for a few minutes
before finally settling down on the bottom. Then after about 5 more
minutes it finally stopped breathing. So in all, it took over 20
minutes, and I felt horrible seeing the fish acting like that.

I don't know what I did wrong then and there, but since then, I used
the freezer if needed.

I can see that happening. The freezer may sound cruel, but not nearly as horrible as this would be.

Roan

[FisheyLisa]

ew.

fortunately I have never had to euthanize, and hope I never do. Thanks for the clove oil post from yahoo. I appreciate your research.

[OrionGirl]

The clove oil shoul dbe dissolved, so that it mixes with the water, instead of just floating on the surface.

The freezer method works as well.

[patoloco]

I had to euthanize a Green Spotted Puffer that fell into the drip plate of my wet-dry filter . I kept him in an isolation tank for 2 days and saw no response.
I had to choose the strong-hit method, although horrible, I believe it's the quickest method for killing a small fish.

I feel guilty for letting him fall from the tank. :sad:

[Roan Art]

The clove oil shoul dbe dissolved, so that it mixes with the water, instead of just floating on the surface.
Right, but I think the point here was that the betta would just breath air from the surface. Regardless if it swam through the oil or not, it wouldn't really work because it uses surface air.

You could "squeeze" all of the air out of the bag so that there was no surface air, but that would be the same as suffocation :(


The freezer method works as well.Yes, but, hrm. Has anyone tried something air-related like ether? Or some other type of gas that would knock them out for a while? If the surface 02 was replaced with a gas that worked instantaneously?

Roan

[patoloco]

It should be studied since I don't know what kind of effect can ether have in a fish. It can make a humen sleep, but, will it do the same to a fish? Maybe it can burn or itch or whatever.

I know for sure this thread is going to have a lot of posts in the near future.
EUTHANAZING A SICK FISH WILL ALWAYS CREATE CONTROVERSY

[Raskolnikov]

If you want to kill a fish in the fastest, least stressful way, then pulverize the head with a single blow. It's extremely easy on smaller fish.

[Roan Art]

If you want to kill a fish in the fastest, least stressful way, then pulverize the head with a single blow. It's extremely easy on smaller fish.Assuming you don't miss and only catch one part of the head or something, yah.

It's rather hard on the owner and I don't know too many with the guts to do it.

It wasn't too long ago that the accepted method of euthanizing snakes and lizards (not sure about other reptiles) was via decapitation. Until someone discovered that snakes and lizards bodies do not shut down the way mammal bodies do. Their brains continue to function for over an hour afterwards, and that includes the pain receptors :(

Dunno how I'd deal with any of my snakes if I should have to euthanize one.

Roan
Ball Pythons 2.0.0 and Kenyan Sand Boas 0.1.0

[PumaWard]

I have put an anabantid down with clove oil (I believe it was a chocolate gourami, but may have been a honey). Three drop mixed well in a cup of water and there was no thrashing or anything. In seconds it was passing on, and very quickly...


I personally don't find 4 drops in a liter of water to be a a high enough concentration.

[Roan Art]

. . .I know for sure this thread is going to have a lot of posts in the near future.
EUTHANAZING A SICK FISH WILL ALWAYS CREATE CONTROVERSY

Good.

It NEEDS to be talked about and this is a great place to do it. No matter what, at some time people are going to have to either HUMANELY euthanize a fish or let it die horribly and slowly.

Let's talk about it.

Roan

[Roan Art]

I have put an anabantid down with clove oil (I believe it was a chocolate gourami, but may have been a honey). Three drop mixed well in a cup of water and there was no thrashing or anything. In seconds it was passing on, and very quickly...


I personally don't find 4 drops in a liter of water to be a a high enough concentration.Well, betta fish are a little different from gouramis. They're one of the few fish that really don't use their gills at all, which is why the clove oil doesn't work.

Like I said, I really think the only way to do it (other than pulverizing or freezing) is to somehow replace the O2 with some sort of gas.

Roan

[Roan Art]

It should be studied since I don't know what kind of effect can ether have in a fish. It can make a humen sleep, but, will it do the same to a fish? Maybe it can burn or itch or whatever.

I'm doing some on line research ATM and have a line on a guy doing studies with danios at a university. He's had to do a lot of euthanizations -- 400 in one day because of a contagious disease. Gonna email him and ask him what he thinks.

Roan

[Roan Art]

The clove oil shoul dbe dissolved, so that it mixes with the water, instead of just floating on the surface.

That reminds me -- and I'll post the relevant parts of the thread soon as the kids are in bed -- that to dissolve the oil they use alcohol. However, they believe that that burns the gills and causes a LOT of pain.

I'll post it when I get a chance.
Roan

[Roan Art]

I had to euthanize a Green Spotted Puffer that fell into the drip plate of my wet-dry filter . I kept him in an isolation tank for 2 days and saw no response.
I had to choose the strong-hit method, although horrible, I believe it's the quickest method for killing a small fish. That sucks and I feel for you.


I feel guilty for letting him fall from the tank. :sad:Accidents happen and no one is perfect. I hate the guilt part, too. You always feel like it was your fault because that animal depends on you for its life.

It's really quite a responsibility. Sigh.

Hugs!
Roan

[Raskolnikov]

Hence my recommendation to destroy the brain rather than decapitation.

There are ways to euthanize a fish that are easy on the fish (instantly destroying the brain), and there are a multitude of other 'recommended' methods that are easy on the fish owner (freezing tropicals, gassing...).

Anyone physically capable of driving a nail is physically capable of rendering instant death to most ornamental fishes.

If an individual is not capable of either euthanizing their own charges or enlisting the assistance of someone who is, they really have no place keeping these animals in the first place. It is the much less talked about yet still essential skill of a good fishkeeper. It's not pretty and it's never pleasant but it is, occaisionally, a necessity.

[PumaWard]

Well, betta fish are a little different from gouramis. They're one of the few fish that really don't use their gills at all, which is why the clove oil doesn't work


I must completely disagree. Bettas use them as often as any other anabantid, IME, actually more. I have never had a betta use its labyrinth a lot (unless stressed) when kept properly. In fact, this morning, I was watching my betta in my 38g for at least 10 minutes.... he did not rise up once to take a gulp of air but did use his gill extensively.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, clove oil goes through skin, so it would still be effective... but I have no actually facts on it, I'll have to go look it up.

[Roan Art]

Okay, here's an excerpt from the site Pharyngula which is written and maintained by Paul Z. Myers, associate professor of biology at UMM:



Here's the way I euthanize fish, though, and since I've killed many
thousands, I can say it's the cleanest, least painful way to do it,
for both me and the fish. It's an anesthetic used for frogs and fish
that goes by various names: ms222, MESAB, 3-aminobenzoic
acid ethyl ester, tricaine methanesulfonate, or, as most of the
pet and aquaculture supply houses call it, Finquel. For routine
anesthesia, I use a 0.2% solution of the stuff—let a fish swim in
it for a few minutes, they lose consciousness, you can do various
surgeries on them, and then put them in clean fresh water,
and a few minutes later, they're awake and swimming around
again. If I need to euthanize them, I use a 0.4% solution (or more
crudely, I use my 0.2% stock and sprinkle a few extra crystals of
the ms222 powder in the beaker), put the fish in it, they fall
asleep…and after 3-5 minutes, their heart stops. It will kill them
at lower doses, but simply takes longer.

I get my stuff from Sigma, catalog number a-5040, for those of
you who can purchase through academic suppliers. Otherwise,
here are a few commercial places that will sell it to you:
Doctors Foster & Smith, PondRX, and Argent Labs. It's about
$15-20 for a 5 gram bottle, which sounds expensive, but a little
goes a very long ways. I bought a 25 gram bottle 8 years ago,
and I've still got lots left…and I euthanize fish far more often
than your usual pet fish owner

You can read the full copy here: http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/how_to_euthanize_a_fish/

Roan

[TommyR]

The clove oil shoul dbe dissolved, so that it mixes with the water, instead of just floating on the surface.



She is right, mix the clove oil WELL with some tank water, it works very well. I've had to do it several times in the past year. The fish goes to sleep within 10-30 seconds. I then place it in the freezer until solid.

I can't bring myself to smash one.

Tom

[rebecca2]

I don't know why some sources say to dissolve the clove oil in alcohol as this isn't necessary in my experience (plus, alcohol doesn't, um, last long around this house...)

I put the necessary amount of clove oil in a jar with some water and just shake it up. It turns cloudy. Then I pour that into the bucket or whatever I have the euthanizees in.

[Minnesota Fats]

This sounds horrible, but when I had to euthanize one of my danios (he got tore up by something pretty bad), I filled the sink with water, put him in, pulled the drain plug, and flipped on the garbage disposer. It sounds pretty horrific, but it did the trick and there is no chance he is going to survive for a while and suffer. I suppose a blender would work as well.

[Roan Art]

She is right, mix the clove oil WELL with some tank water, it works very well. I've had to do it several times in the past year. The fish goes to sleep within 10-30 seconds. I then place it in the freezer until solid. Have the betta fish you've euthanized also gone to sleep in 10-30 seconds?

Roan

[Roan Art]

I don't know why some sources say to dissolve the clove oil in alcohol as this isn't necessary in my experience (plus, alcohol doesn't, um, last long around this house...)Presumably because oil and water don't mix well and you want a solution that is thoroughly mixed. Oil and water separates quickly. The alcohol breaks down the oil so that it freely mixes with the water.


I put the necessary amount of clove oil in a jar with some water and just shake it up. It turns cloudy. Then I pour that into the bucket or whatever I have the euthanizees in.What type of fish are you referring to? Have you tried this with betta or other labyrinth fish?

Roan

[SquirrelOsO]

just flush it
your probably going through more pain than the fish agonizing over it
ive never heard of euthanizing a fish lol sorry, its not a dog or a cat its a fish!
flush it, wipe yer hands and go watch tv...sheesh

[PumaWard]

I know... it must be impossible to be cruel to a fish... (a living being you took into your care). Why not disect it alive too? It's not a dog after all...

[FreddytheFish]

I've never had to euthanize, and hope I've never will, but I read that along with the freezer way, the quickest way is put the fish in a glass, then drop an Alka-Scelzer tablet inside it.

Don't know if it works, but it sounds like it'd be quick.

[TommyR]

Have the betta fish you've euthanized also gone to sleep in 10-30 seconds?

Roan


I only did one betta and yes it did.

Tom

[SquirrelOsO]

alka selzer lol
tell me that wouldnt hurt!

[Roan Art]

alka selzer lol
tell me that wouldnt hurt!Why would you care? It's a fish!

:troll:

Roan

[FreddytheFish]

alka selzer lol
tell me that wouldnt hurt!

Supposedly its quick and painless :huh:

[PumaWard]

It releases a ton of CO2 into the water and essentially, the fish suffocates, but not the "painful" way. They go to sleep like we do when the O2 runs out. At least that's how I believe it works, but I won't put money on it.

[FreddytheFish]

It releases a ton of CO2 into the water and essentially, the fish suffocates, but not the "painful" way. They go to sleep like we do when the O2 runs out. At least that's how I believe it works, but I won't put money on it.

That's exactly what I read.
:shark:

[daveedka]

Check the article forum ???????????

Just some additional thoughts for those who don't want to read the article.
in the case of the beatta that took 20-30 miinutes, the person writing the thread did not mix the oil. they added fish to water and dripped in oil. I imagine any fish would have a similar reaction and time line in this case beatta or not.

Labyrynth fish are capable of breathing air, but also use their gills, and will quickly succumb to clove oil or other decent anesthetics whether or not they swim to the top for air.

I hav not researched the alka Seltzer, If Co2 is the way it kills I would be concerned. co2 and oxygen do not inhibit each other in water if I Understand things correctly. so there would still be adequate o2 despite high co2 levels. co2 does however turn water to carbonic acid which will kill fish if the ph drops extremely low. I do not know if this would or would not be a good humane method, but I would definately do some extensive research before I put a fish through it.

:rant2: And never ever flush a fish that is nt dead for sure. even if dead it is probably a better practice to put it in the trash or the flower garden. Live fish can and will end up in wild waterways, and this is one of the methods of introducing non-native specie. Aside from all other environmental moral and ethical issues, the more problems this hobby causes the more trouble we will have. Kill the fish before it leaves your home one way or another.
dave