FYI - Knight Gobies eat Neons. [Archive]

ChilDawg

03-05-2003, 10:28 AM

Please consider either setting up a BW tank or returning the Gobies. If you do not, you will have all sorts of problems due to stress negatively affecting your Gobies and eventually causing great illness with them. "Making do" is really not fair to your fish and does not reflect highly upon your fishkeeping skills. They may be wonderful, but, since this is my first impression of you (and undoubtedly others' first impression as well), please consider raising the bar by telling us that you have decided to do one or the other of those suggestions (and then actually carry it out in real life!!!)

Good luck with the decision,

Matthew

joe schmoe

03-05-2003, 6:26 PM

:rolleyes:
Sorry guys, but I don't come here for affirmation. I also don't claim to be the "perfect fishkeeper". I don't need or ask for your approval. I've posted here (sparingly) for a few years now so I'm sorry the impression I've given you isn't a good one...take it for what you will. I'll be keeping the fish, I wont be setting up a brackish tank, and I wont be returning them. Do yourself a favor and don't waste your time on trying to debate the issue. Sorry to come off as an a-hole but.......

Oh...and FUR IS MURDER.

:rolleyes:

MonoSebaelover

03-05-2003, 7:19 PM

We are not here to argue with you but only to make sure the welfare of the fish is high on the list of the keeper. Since you don't want to duplicate that, thats your problem not ours. We try to save people money by steering them the right way and the correct way. When it is all said and done you will be loosing a lot of money. The gobies will wreck havoc in your fw tank since they are stressed. In the end (and now) they will be the ones suffering the most. We can only give you advice not make you do the things we suggest. Since you have 5+ people telling you to do the same thing, don't ya think you should listen to them, and spare the lives of the Knights? Your call.

howlincody

03-06-2003, 7:36 AM

I didn't mean to come off as rude but you have to take responsibility. It's not fair for your fish. Everybody makes mistakes but, why not correct it if you have the opportunity?

Fur is Murder? I'm not sure whether that was serious or sarcastic but I'm a vegetarian and environmentalist, so I can relate to that viewpoint. If you really sympathize with animals, why can't you buy another aquarium in a few weeks or months and make it brackish? Keeping Knight Gobies in freshwater weakens their immune system since they spend their entire lives in brackish environs.

Good Luck

Faramir

03-06-2003, 8:08 AM

The problem will resolve itself in a few months when the gobies go to that great estuary in the sky, and their mortal remains are reverently disposed of curtesy Thomas Crapper (Great White Waterchute) Funeral Services Ltd.

Pufferpunk

03-06-2003, 9:43 AM

...probably taking the rest of their tankmates with them. Maybe he'll get fed up & quit the hobby. We can only hope... Did you read his signature?:mad:

joe schmoe

03-06-2003, 10:33 AM

What you folks have to realize is that everyone doesn't look at this hobby the same way you do. Example: my tapwater is hard as has a PH likely somewhere in the neighborhood of 7.8 or so. Does that mean I should rid myself of all South American and Asian fish becuse the water properties aren't to their liking?? Obviously I don't think so.

Believe me...the gobies will be around for quite some time. I've had this tank up for 8 months or so and have lost 2 fish prior to this. One of them I bought knowing full-well he had little chance of surviving he was in so bad a shape to begin with. The other a Neon of questionable health. I've done this hobby for 15 years...I've done quite a bit. I now keep it simple...after all...IT'S JUST A FISH TANK (I put that sig there just for folks like you...the PETA group)

Yes, the 'fur is murder' bit was a joke. I find the irony in your response amusing though.

cdawson

03-06-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by joe schmoe
I didn't realize until after purchasing - an impulse buy. Setting up a brackish-only tank wont be happening anytime in the near future, so they'll have to make due.

You can HAVE the guilt of killing innocent creatures and wasting your money. You don't think it's a big deal until it actually happens. How would you like it if you were from california and some big alien kidnapped you and put in an arctic exhibit in their zoo. You get sick, ticked off and wind up freezing to death (not exactly the same but you get the idea). You might as well go buy some clown fish and thrown them in with your neons while your at it.

MonoSebaelover

03-06-2003, 1:13 PM

Just because your tap water is high doesn't mean you can't do anything about it. One could go to their lfs and buy some Neutral Regulator (by SeaChem) or some product to the like to bring the pH down. I also live where the waters pH is high and I treat it if I have acidic loving fish. And how do you know the gobies will be around for awhile since you said yourself it was an impulse buy which means generally the people don't know a thing about the fishes living conditions. Knight Gobies will NOT live for long in anything but brackish. Putting Knights in FW is practically the same as putting them in salwater. It is not their natural environment so they will stress and die generally aiding in getting their tankmates sick too. Why subject your tank to so much damage. If you plan on keeping it simple and say it is just a fish tank that doesn't show much integrity on your part. The fish are living breathing creatures. They have feelings and can fall victim to the same things humans can when they are stressed. I believe that if anyone that has replied to this post was you, they would ALL do the right thing and return the fish or set up a brackish tank. For Knights you would only need a 20G. Why not make them happy and get all of us that care for the fishes welfare off your back?

joe schmoe

03-06-2003, 2:44 PM

Originally posted by MonoSebaelover
Why not make them happy and get all of us that care for the fishes welfare off your back?

Sorry, peer pressure never worked for me. I see your points...all of them, but that's not going to change anything. I wont continue to go back and forth...I think we are wasting each other's time. What I will do is post pics of them in 6 months...they'll still be around...TRUST ME .:cool:

BTW - I've found that chemicals to change pH don't work to well...just my experience. IIRC, they have a hard time changing pH in hard water...but that experiment was quite some time ago.

howlincody

03-06-2003, 3:02 PM

Hmmm...

You find the irony in my post humorous? I find it humorous that you compared keeping south american fish in hard water to brackish fish in saltwater. I've kept Angels and Rams in water with a pH of nearly 8.0. There really aren't that many bad effects that occur to the fish in such a condition. Keeping brackish water fish in a freshwater environment is completely different. I guess you don't realize that brackish water fish rely on the salt in their environment for an osmotic balance? Without it, they are much much more likely to get diseases and have a weakened immune system. That is a fact, not my personal opinion.

You are being cruel and pernicious by keeping these fish in the conditions you are keeping them in. That is the bottom line.

ChilDawg

03-06-2003, 3:22 PM

I hope that you are right, Joe, and I look forward to seeing those pix in 6 mos., but I think that we would be more likely to see them if the water in the knights' tank was brackish.

The only possible way for them to survive long-term in FW conditions would be if we somehow bred the necessity of BW for osmoregulation out of them (as we have managed to breed Angels and Rams which do not suffer from alkalosis in alkaline pH conditions), but I do not see that happening without almost completely changing their genetic makeup.

pH lowering products have a tendency not to work because alkaline water has enough buffering capacity that pH lowering products will not make a difference until "crash levels." pH raising products need to be used in conjunction with buffers if the GH and KH of water is low in an area. Yes, they do not work singularly, but they do work with a little extra chemical work...which is anathema to most of us.

I would urge you to please consider putting the Knights in BW, but slowly acclimating them to it is necessary at this point. Also, you could ask the LFS from whence they came what conditions they need--but be prepared to take that with a grain of salt (which would hopefully find its way to your tank).

~Matthew

P.S. If I were truly following the tenets of PETA, I would not have any pets, and I would tell you to do so as well. Since I am obviously an aquarist, I cannot be called a PETA radical, nor can any of the rest of us.

howlincody

03-06-2003, 3:31 PM

If that was at all in reference to me, I'm not in PETA. I'm quite opposed to that organization, actually. Not all vegetarians agree with PETA and some of it's extreme views.

I am, however, a member of GreenPeace.

andruboz

03-06-2003, 5:48 PM

is there any compromise? could suggest he just adds a relatively good amount of salt that hits that grey area tween fresh and brack and find some salt laden food to keep the fish a little more in balance.

i know we cant get world peace, but a little goby conditioning
should be a problem with a reasonable solution.

MonoSebaelover

03-06-2003, 8:07 PM

Thats not exactly the point andruboz. Brackish should be kept in brackish water and ther is no grey region in between brackish and fresh. It is either brackish or its not. Plus a little bit of salt won't hurt the freshwater fish but Knights need more than a little bit. That is the issue. The fish are not being kept in the correct environment and until that happens the Knights will be totally stressed and will eventually die. I bought a Knight Goby that was being kept in freshwater a couple of years ago (I DID know that they were a brackish fish and went home and acclimated him up), well the store had him for two weeks and he hid behind the UGF tube and was almost black (very dark grey). He was surely close to deaths doorstep. I think you are very optomistic in assuming the Knights will still be in "good" condition in 6 months, if alive at all.

andruboz

03-06-2003, 11:35 PM

wetwebmedia list it this way:

Stigmatogobius sadanundio (Hamilton 1822), the Knight Goby. Asia: from India, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia. To three and three fifths inch in length. Conds.: freshwater to brackish, pH 7-8, dH 9-19. temp. 20-26 C.

further research of mangroves in singapore, home of the grey knight goby, says salinity varys from 1.0005 to 1.035 depending
on the tides and the season. [35 being marine]. the article said brackish is considered from .5 to 18. how much salt do you need for 1.0005? not that much.

a few other sites polled, say 1 tablespoon to 5 gallons will do.
according to some posts, they arent keen on temps over 80.
even shadier sites say they can be acclimated total fresh or total marine.

the whole point of being brackish is flexibility to survive variation in salinity. eek out an existance where freshies and salties fear to tread.

i dont think it will do as well in a no salt tank. [i wouldnt keep it in a no salt tank] . but he's made it pretty clear we cant guilt him into returning it. and if he's doing everything else right, it probably will be around in 6 months. perhaps when he is tired of the goby being greyish black, he'll chuck it in a hospital tank with salt, start to enjoy the original color of the fish, and become a brackish fanatic.

VoodooChild

03-07-2003, 12:33 AM

1.0035?! Holy crap! That's a helluva SG. You could probably float on water that thick.

MonoSebaelover

03-07-2003, 11:59 AM

Just remember that not all info you get on the net is always correct. We found a major size issue on salt side that said a Harlequin Basslet would get 12 inches on Fenners site when in fact they will get about 7 inches max. Fenner is a great guy don't get me wrong, its just not all of the info is correct. I definetly don't think I believe the 1.035. That is pretty strong saltwater. Most saltwater aquariums run 1.023-1.025. Brine Shrimp comes from saltwater that runs about 1.030. The problem with brackish is it is so undefined because of all the tidal changes. You ask one person what brackish is and then ask another and they will have totally different responses. I have always kept my brackish fish at a salinity of at least 1.005. I got this by adding 1 cup of salt per 10 gallons of water. 1 cup of salt per 10 gallons is a lot for a freshwater fish. I currently use 1.5 cups per 10 gallons of water and that brings it about 1.009-1.010. I currently keep Anableps, Mudskipper, Archers, among several gobies and mollies. I think Joe has given up on us telling him the right thing to do, so now only time will tell the outcome. The sad part is Knights are SO pretty in brackish with their black spots that generally have a pretty blue glimmer to them. Guess he will never experience this till the fish go in brackish, if ever.

joe schmoe

03-07-2003, 1:29 PM

I'm not a hopeless cause, but I can only do so much in a very small apartment. Brackish fish intrigue me - at one time I had a pair of Archers (before I realized they were brackish)....I used to catch live flies for them, seal the top of the tank and let them go in the space above the water....THAT was fun to see....but I don't know if I find brackish fish interesting enough to set up a dedicated tank later. I'll be purchasing a home in 5 months or so....maybe a moderately sized fresh, a moderately sized brackish and a moderately sized saltwater tank would look nice.

Curious, how do you accomodate the mudskippers??

howlincody

03-07-2003, 3:58 PM

Haha. 1.035?! I don't even think the great Salt Lake in Utah is THAT salty.

Joe - I completely comprehend your situation about an apartment. I'm a lowly college student, heh. We are just trying to warn you of the risks of keeping these fish in freshwater. You have to understand where we are coming from, right? No offense is meant to you, everybody makes mistakes, it's just hard on the fish. I hope your fish DOES live but, naturally, the chances are much greater that it won't in those conditions (not impossible, though).

Also, whoever said that they heard Knight Gobies do worse in 80F+ temps, I've kept mine in 82-84F water for almost 3 and a half years with no bad effects. I know somebody that has to raise the temp that high to breed them. I did hear, however, that they like a difference in temperatures between night and day and that they do well with incandescent lighting (for the heat reasons).

ChilDawg

03-07-2003, 5:23 PM

GSL Info, provided by an Artemia supplier: SG 1.022 in the area where Artemia can live, much higher in other places. (This is 12% salinity, the lake can be up to 27% saline, and is usually at least 22% in some parts.)

andruboz

03-07-2003, 5:37 PM

one of my most trusted sources, the lady at my lfs, said they dont last long in fresh water.

i really just got involved in the discussion to play devils advocate.
sometimes it seems like fishy people want the job of judge but not the job of negotiator. if a group gets into a discussion where the fish is behind a door [metaphor for dialogue] that has closed, the fish can not be helped. but as long as the door is still open, the person can be persuaded to do whats best for the fish.

the upside of all this is: i did a bunch of research on knight gobys
and when i have completed building a bigger brackish tank, i will think about getting one or two.

joe schmoe

03-08-2003, 9:49 PM

Here they are...dying right before your eyes ;) :rolleyes:

Male I believe.
http://home1.gte.net/res0t2li/knight1.jpg

Female I believe.
http://home1.gte.net/res0t2li/knight2.jpg

ChilDawg

03-08-2003, 9:51 PM

Nice use of sarcasm, but they do look like beautiful fish. I am going by my reading when I say what I have said, so perhaps your practical experience will win out over my book-learning. I hope that you can post pix of them in 6 months, and I will truly be waiting on "tenterhooks" to see.

Best of luck (and I don't mean that sarcastically).

~Matthew

MonoSebaelover

03-09-2003, 11:38 AM

Well for right now the Mudskipper got a little bit shafted by the other fish. He would like more places to hop about but right now has 3 in a 55. Sometime in the next several weeks I will be attaching some sheets of acrylic via silicone to the sides and corners of the tanks to make him more comfortable and make little mud flats for him. It will be cool once it is done. The tank houses the fish I listed above and will soon house 4-5 Mono Sebaes for awhile. BTW Joe, the Knights look great! I am pretty sure you identified them correctly with male/female. Males have longer filaments on the dorsal spike and females are rounder in the belly. I think Orion had these guys breed awhile ago. Can't exactly remember though. Didn't realize you had an apartment crisis! When you do move into a house definetly consider it. I mainly do brackish for the Anablep Anablep, Mudskippers and Mono Sebaes. Hope this helps and enjoy the little Knights. BTW, sorry if I was not the nicest over the past several posts, we were getting ready for vacation (which I am not happy to be on) and was totally stressed out. I have 11 setups and getting them all ready to go away for a week is not fun! We have been gone for two days now and I miss all of them already!

andruboz

03-10-2003, 10:00 PM

glad i'm not the only one who has issues with vacation.

last vacation i was on was a week long and when i got back, the fish were healthy but the puffer's demeanor had changed drastically. and neither my fish feeder or my puffer are talking about it. I guess i will never know. have a family reunion in june or july- 1300 miles away, and i'm not excited about that either.

Pufferpunk

03-10-2003, 10:25 PM

How did their demeanor change? I'm going on vacation soon too. Did someone else care for them?

andruboz

03-11-2003, 4:52 PM

the week i got back from vacation the fahaka stopped coming to the surface for food. no more belly rubs, and he wouldnt eat nightcrawlers anymore. he just seemed like a different fish. i know he's the same fish. the feeder person couldnt have killed it and replaced it with one like it. she was a little bit afraid of it, she didnt like handling the mealworms even, so i'm pretty sure she didnt jam her hand in and harrass him. i just dont know why he changed his routine.

i wouldnt panic if i were you, filbert will be fine. i'd watch the fish sitter go thru the feeding routine from a distance just to see if the puffers give that person the same behaviors they give you.

MonoSebaelover

03-13-2003, 10:58 AM

I know that all my fish will be very mad at me when I get back. My saltwater fish hate it when I leave. My Lunare Wrasses especially hate me. When I come back home on Saturday they will probably completly ignore me when they normally pace the front of the glass hoping I will give them something. They will probably ignore me until I feed them though! They are such little suckers for food! My 3ft Zebra Moray Eel will probably also be very happy to see me. The lady we have taking care of our tanks knows a bit about the hobby and about saltwater tanks but hates eels and snakes. She was dreading feeding him even after I told her it is only on a stick. Just put a scallop on the stick and put it near his nose. Oh well, I totally miss everyone at home. I had a nightmare about my big tank the other night. I know I know I'm obsessed! This is one of the few things I enjoy doing and this keeps me extremely busy. My only hobbies are my fish, my horses, and my boyfriend (not exactly in that order!) If you have only a few tanks they should be fine while you go away, but I had 11 different set ups I had to get ready, and I do feel bad for the lady watching them.

joe schmoe

03-14-2003, 11:59 PM

Houston, we have a problem.

(enhanced the pic to bring out the red line)
http://home1.gte.net/res0t2li/knight3.jpg

All of a sudden, this one seems to spend most of his time with his mouth agape. Not gasping for air, just mostly open. He didn't eat much for a day and was really lethargic and turned the darker gray color you folks described earlier. Now, his apetite and energy are returning, as is the color, but the red line (looks like some sort of blood vessell) in the belly is beyond me. It looks like some sort of physical trauma, but I hadn't been in the tank for days.

BTW, no cheating and saying it's because they are in FW when that's not really the cause :p