Blood Parrot hybrid misinformation

[JimG]

Hi I found this forun through a search on Blood Parrot Cichlids (BPs) from which I was linked to an article on this site inwhich it was stated that BPs usually produced sterile eggs due to them being hybrids. This is completely false information. Hybrid offspring from two different parent species consist of males which are always sterile and females which are generally fertile. This is why with BPs some people have been able to further hybridize by mating a female BP with a male convict.

I have 4 BPs between 4" and 5" in a 55gal tank with 6 congo tetras as dither fish. I have kept a variety of cichlids in past as well as other fresh water community tank classic species and I very much enjoy my BPs, I find them to be responsive, attractive and hardy.

[thom336]

actually, to my knowledge the males are not always sterile, and it is possible to breed parrot cichlids almost 'true' and 'pure'. however, i would not recommend the breeding of them, as they are a very deformed fish. you must be one of the first people i have heard of who refers to them as attractive, although i must admit they can have a great personality.

[Tiger15]

Originally posted by JimG
BPs usually produced sterile eggs due to them being hybrids. This is completely false information. Hybrid offspring from two different parent species consist of males which are always sterile and females which are generally fertile. This is why with BPs some people have been able to further hybridize by mating a female BP with a male convict.


You are actually perpectuating further misinformation. There is no proof, only rumor or lie, that BP is hybrid in the first place. An TPH article couple years ago did a research and came to the conclusion that BP is likely a mutant Midas with deformity. The mutant genes are recessive and when two mutants mate, the paired up recessive genes become fatal and therefore their eggs are infertile.

However, when one BP mate with another normal fish, even if the mate is not the same species, they produce fertile eggs. BP will produce fertile eggs with a normal Midas, convict and probably other closely related CA cichlids.

Fish hybrids are typically fertile and normal looking. Look at Flowerhorn, live bearers, and many Malawyan and Tanganyikans hybrids.

This BP being a hybrid between Midas and Severum rumor is so widespread that even experts like Louselle and Ron Coleman have accepted it without independent research. Midas is a CA and Severum is a SA and they are so remotely related that very unlikely that they can sussessfully cross breed.

[thom336]

what planet have you been living on tiger? it is well known that the parrot cichlid is a hybrid, it is ultimately undoubtable. and if it isnt, then i want the proof...in the form of its scientific name. hybrids do not carry one, and almost every shop here labels it as 'parrot cichlid hybrid', there is masses of media around it condeming it because it is a hybrid, and Britains foremost and leading expert on cichlids Mary Bailey has it labeled as a hybrid. its origin is between two or more central american cichlids, of which they have not been stated, and rumours have aroused as to which they are.

[wetmanNY]

Originally posted by JimG
it was stated that BPs usually produced sterile eggs due to them being hybrids. This is completely false information. Hybrid offspring from two different parent species consist of males which are always sterile and females which are generally fertile.


Jim P apparently doesn't realize that sex in fishes is not chromosome-determined, as it is with mammals (and, independently evolved, with birds too.)

The industry forces behind these two moneymaking hybrids, Red Parrots and Flowerhorns, are being geared up now to counter any negative information on these manmade staples of the Singapore and Malaysian fishmills.

Genetic incompatibilities sufficiently account for Red Parrot deformities.

[thom336]

i think personally that JimG has made some fine points, except the one thing i pointed out earlier about the sterile males. i dont see the point that you are making wetman...how did you approach the topic of chromosome sex cell determination?

c'mon...its his first post (and a bloody good one in my opinion, to go in like that), so cut the guy a bit of slack aie and stop trying to find faults where there are none!

[wetmanNY]

http://www.e-borneo.com/insideborneo/leisure0220.html
Now here's the real flavor of hybrid Flowerhorn cichlids. Breeder Paul Yii of Malaysia says they're a cross between a Rift Lake African cichlid and a Giant Gourami, Osphronemus goramy! Take that! Paul Loiselle!

And he should know, because he's selling them like hotcakes.

A little feng-shui. It is not recommended, according to this link, to place the aquarium where it faces the kitchen, nor in a bedroom, nor under the home altar! Inauspicious!

Check it out! Here's an expert you'd be more likely to trust!

A less zany approach to hybrid cichlids is taken by Ron Coleman:
http://cichlidresearch.com/parrot.html

[wetmanNY]

http://www.geocities.com/parrotcichlid/history.html

Anyone interested in the mysterious history of this hybrid, which came on the market in Taiwan, will want to scope the Parrot Cichlid page. Though the parentage of the Red Parrot is treated as a "trade secret", it seems that Taiwan fishfarms are able to reproduce the hybrid using a male "Cichlasoma citrinellum" (midas cichlid) and a female "Cichliasoma synspilum" (redhead cichlid). However, the author of the brief note at the site, Shing Lam, doubts the purity of the parent stock in Taiwan.

[AikidoGuy]

i wonder what we'd get if we crossed a tiger and my cat??

[JimG]

Originally posted by wetmanNY
Jim P apparently doesn't realize that sex in fishes is not chromosome-determined, as it is with mammals (and, independently evolved, with birds too.)...

Genetic incompatibilities sufficiently account for Red Parrot deformities.


Mammals and birds both have sexual characteristics phenotyped via chromosomal differences (though with the avians it is XX for male) but all chordates have sex determined by their genes even if in many cases environmental factors can catalyze which genes are phenotyped (as with some reptiles and also monotremes in which temperature differences as the embryos develope in their eggs will cause them to come out male or female).

What I am talking about though really is unaffected by all this as none of this has anything to do with how gamates form in chordates in the first place, which is via meiosis and it is here in hybridization - between two species separated long enough to have too many accumulated varied mutations to have genome which completely match up - where the sperm doesn't come out right but where the eggs can.

In fish hybrids (that is hybrids actually between two different species and not just subspecies) just as with mammal and bird and reptile hybrids the males are shootin' blanks while the females can be further hybridized.

If you don't believe that severum played a part in the 'creation' of blood parrots check out the 3rd post on the following thread http://bloodparrot.aquariahobbyist.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=3e6030d848d7ffff;act=ST;f=1;t=258; st=30
it contains a pic of a juvenile blood parrot next to a juvenile severum. I think the family resemblance goes beyond them just both being cichlids but you decide for yourself.

I do agree though that the so called 'deformities' blood parrots are said to suffer can be readily explained by hybridization between two species quite far apart and distant from their common ancestor in evolution. My blood parrots really don't have any of the problems I have seen described - they can all close and open their mouths and bite, they show no signs of swim bladder problems and their spines are no more 'deformed' than those of angel fish or discuss whose body types theirs are reminiscent of. Inline breeding (inbreeding) can cause deformities by the compounding of recessive maladaptive genes but these traits in selective breeding are removed by culling of the deformed offspring and re-breeding of fish with desirable traits but without the undesirable ones. One cannot do this with blood parrots as they cannot be bred together BPxBP because the males are all sterile and if you want an F2 generation the only thing you can do is find a convict or some other closely related cichlid to be a sperm donor.

It is completely readily apparent that blood parrots cannot be just mutant midases, red devils nor any other single cichlid species because if they were anyone could continue to inline breed them, cull the undesirable traits and select for the desirable ones.

Thanks to those who gave me kind words of welcome and encouragement on this forum - I think I like it here and shall select a nice flat rock against the tank wall to claim territory.

[JimG]

An TPH article couple years ago did a research and came to the conclusion that BP is likely a mutant Midas with deformity. The mutant genes are recessive and when two mutants mate, the paired up recessive genes become fatal and therefore their eggs are infertile. However, when one BP mate with another normal fish, even if the mate is not the same species, they produce fertile eggs. [/B][/QUOTE]


Except my friend you are ignoring the fact that female blood parrots produce eggs which can be fertilize with convict sperm (and probably sperm from other cichlids though convicts are the only ones I am sure of) while male blood parrots are incapable of fertilizing any fish eggs (poor buggers).

And again as I pointed out in a previous post if blood parrots were just mutations of a single species they could readily be inline bred with each other. They cannot be, they cannot be just mutations of midas, red devils nor anything else

cheers

[RTR]

My LFS has in stock a breding pair of BPs - spawn was present in the tank as eggs when I saw it a few days ago. They certainly appeared fertile, eyespots visible. It is not the first pair they have had there.

All this supposition is good mental exercise and data transmission, but no one has yet shown any evidnce other than descriptive or anecdotal that the PB are really hybrids.

[JimG]

Originally posted by RTR
My LFS has in stock a breding pair of BPs - spawn was present in the tank as eggs when I saw it a few days ago. They certainly appeared fertile, eyespots visible. It is not the first pair they have had there.




Does this LFS have a website or email address? I have heard people make this claim before but every time I try tracing it to the source the alleged person(s) with a breeding pair of BPs vanishes into the chasm of fable or it turns out the fry are actually 'jellybeans' (i.e. BPxConvict). If BPs could be bred BPxBP they wouldn't be so darn expensive. Their 'creation' requires a lab and artificial insemination of Severum eggs with Red Devil sperm. Only a small percentage of fry come from this compared to the average and few are culled due to the expense, thus there are a large percentage for sale with some undesirable characteristics. My LFS owner tells me he gets his BPs from a breeding lab in Texas.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by AikidoGuy
i wonder what we'd get if we crossed a tiger and my cat??

http://www.sierrasafarizoo.com/animals/liger.htm

[AikidoGuy]

LOL.. only you would find that Slip.. hahaha thats good..

[goldfries]

Originally posted by wetmanNY
http://www.e-borneo.com/insideborneo/leisure0220.html
Now here's the real flavor of hybrid Flowerhorn cichlids. Breeder Paul Yii of Malaysia says they're a cross between a Rift Lake African cichlid and a [i]Giant Gourami, Osphronemus goramy

the Giant Gourami is called Kaloi over here, it's fierce. but it doesn't look any bit like the LH. i couldn't visit Paul Yii as he's like on another island next to mine despite the same country, if could i'd like to see the ones he claimed to be mix of Afr Cichlids and Kaloi.

doesn't make sense to have a cichlid mate with a anabatoid.

the LH looks more like the RD(in color) and Midas(in shape).

btw BP looks like a severum and a convict as well. i looked at my severum, i notice the shape of the BP resembles a severum but only with a deformed mouth. the head looks similar to a convict.

[Tiger15]

Originally posted by thom336
it is well known that the parrot cichlid is a hybrid, it is ultimately undoubtable. and if it isnt, then i want the proof...in the form of its scientific name. hybrids do not carry one, and almost every shop here labels it as 'parrot cichlid hybrid', there is masses of media around it condeming it because it is a hybrid, and Britains foremost and leading expert on cichlids Mary Bailey has it labeled as a hybrid. its origin is between two or more central american cichlids, of which they have not been stated, and rumours have aroused as to which they are.

Thom, there is never a proof that BP is a hybrid. Simply because the shape of a BP resembles the shape of a severum doesn't make it the truth. There are other rumors as well that BP is a cross between Midas and Synspillum. Which one do you believe? Crooked back fish do occur randomly from inbreeding and ballon molly and fancy goldfish are common examples. Most of the time, the deformed fish were culled but the BP, balloon molly and fancy goldfish were perpetuated.

Severum are SA cichlid that live in soft acid water and Midas are CA that live in hard alkaline water. Not only the two fish require completely different water requirement, genetically, the two are remotely related and unlikely to cross breed successfully. The Midas and Syspillum cross is more plausible because they are closely related CA, but then the hybrid offsprings would not be infertile. Mutant fish, on the other hand, are often infertile or low in fertility because of the recessive genes they carry. But the mutant fish can often breed successfully with a normal fish because the recessive gene that paired with a normal gene is no longer fatal. This is why BP can breed with a normal Midas, convict and possbily other CA.

BP is an Asian invention and its origin is a well guard trade secret. It is unfortunate that the BP rumor or intentional lie has become very successful and widespread that even experts have accepted it without question.

[JimG]

Originally posted by Tiger15

Crooked back fish do occur randomly from inbreeding and ballon molly and fancy goldfish are common examples. Most of the time, the deformed fish were culled but the BP, balloon molly and fancy goldfish were perpetuated.
Mutant fish, on the other hand, are often infertile or low in fertility because of the recessive genes they carry. But the mutant fish can often breed successfully with a normal fish because the recessive gene that paired with a normal gene is no longer fatal. This is why BP can breed with a normal Midas, convict and possbily other CA.


BPs can't be selectively inline bred and their undesirable traits culled out to produce a strain without them because they can't be bred together BPXBP. Someone who claims they can needs to submit me proof. This claim you are making about mutant fish being often infertile or low in fertility is utter poppycock. Even if there were a mutation for infertility it couldn't be selected for now could it? Recessive genes causing fatalities in inbreeds can certainly occur but then those fry are naturally culled. I guess dead fish would be infertile if that is what you are claiming :D

So basically all the evidence we do have about BPs -
1) inability of male BPs to fertilize eggs (at the very least in the vast majority of cases)
2) viability of BP eggs with sperm from other cichlids
demonstrates them to be hybrids.
And the evidence they are just mutants of some single cichlid line?

[JimG]

Originally posted by goldfries
doesn't make sense to have a cichlid mate with a anabatoid.




Definitely - in fact it would be biologically impossible without recombinant DNA splicing! :eek:

[RTR]

Sorry, should have specified - the shop is Rick's Fish and Pet Supply in Frederick MD. 301-694-9664. They have no web or email presence.

Since the first positive breeding reports of BPs on the web some time back, my guess has been that these are not true hybids, unless within their own near kin. I would guess the likely source is the same sort of mutation as the ballon molly not that long ago, or the short-bodied goldfish.

Amelanistic coloring and long finned varieties are non-survival traits for most fish in the wild, but they are not hard to sustain in captivity. Some color forms are non-survival even in captivity and need to be heterozygotes to make it, but they are still around from breeders.

[JimG]

Originally posted by RTR
Sorry, should have specified - the shop is Rick's Fish and Pet Supply in Frederick MD. 301-694-9664. They have no web or email presence.

Since the first positive breeding reports of BPs on the web some time back, my guess has been that these are not true hybids, unless within their own near kin. I would guess the likely source is the same sort of mutation as the ballon molly not that long ago, or the short-bodied goldfish.

Amelanistic coloring and long finned varieties are non-survival traits for most fish in the wild, but they are not hard to sustain in captivity. Some color forms are non-survival even in captivity and need to be heterozygotes to make it, but they are still around from breeders.

Thanks I think I will contact this shop just for jollies and ask them even though it is long distance for me. Though I find quite often that lfs workers have no clue as to what they are talking about and sometimes will lie if they think they will get a sale out of it. I have been searching the web and have found not one single example from a reputable verifiable source affirming fertile male blood parrots. I have seen a couple of claims in forums like this which I can retrieve no response from when I ask for verification. The problem with such mutations as ballon mollies or short bodied goldfish when compared to BPs is that breeders can readily inline breed those fish to select for those traits and select out undesirable traits. I am not sure what your point is regarding "non-survival traits" for fish in the wild, sorry, none of these traits selected through inline breeding for ornimentation cause infertility of any kind in the progeny.

Also the definition of species in taxonomy is quite fluid. Basically in the animal kingdom a species is a subgroup of a Genus which will not mate with other subgroups naturally in the wild. Some groups of animals we define as species in nature can and will mate in captivity and produce fertile offspring. Probably these groups shouldn't be regarded as separate species but rather as subspecies. I had a pair of lovebirds I had hoped to mate. For years the female laid unfertilized eggs even though the two often did the dance of love. Come to find out my male, a powder blue masked, was a hybrid between two distinct species of lovebirds from different areas of africa. Guess what? He was shootin' blanks!

[goldfries]

Severum are SA cichlid that live in soft acid water and Midas are CA that live in hard alkaline water. Not only the two fish require completely different water requirement, genetically, the two are remotely related and unlikely to cross breed successfully. The Midas and Syspillum cross is more plausible because they are closely related CA, but then the hybrid offsprings would not be infertile.

different water paremeters doesn't mean they can't mate.


BP is an Asian invention and its origin is a well guard trade secret. It is unfortunate that the BP rumor or intentional lie has become very successful and widespread that even experts have accepted it without question.

so you're a better experts than the experts? since it's invented it's gotta be from some where. definitely the parents weren't asian fish.

[lesley]

Just wanted to share that I took a class with Ron Coleman last semester and am thinking about asking him to be my advisor for my master's thesis. Kind of cool to see his name come up here.

[scholar]

Leslie hi,

This Bp issue can make a great project a nd master thesis! :)

[thom336]

sorry, i got lost some way back on this...i have trouble reading long texts on a computer screen, so i havent read it all. but im kinda trying to pick up the jist here...

Bp's are true hybrids...there IS another, non hybrid, cichlid known as the parrot cichlid in some parts of the world...and these two mustnt be confused. i think people need to check their on the same wave lengths...

and secondly, it is almost genetically impossible for a species to produce offspring that have ALL fertile females and infertile males. it is possible for BP's to spawn, and i have been informed of cases as such, however how the spawning is carried out is mainly unknown as there is very little written documentation on BP's.

and thirdly...what exactly are you lot defining as 'experts'? are experts those that have written a book? those that have a hpd (doctors)? those that have years of experiance in the hobby? those that have written thousands of posts on here? i think every fishkeeper has 'expertise' in different areas, but you cant really define someone as an expert over someone else, as there are many areas of fishkeeping, and many different methods and theories on fishkeeping, you cant really say that one persons is better than anothers - we are, in essence, all experts in our own right.

[goldfries]

agree.

i've been around town, seems that a number of flowerhorns exhibit the physical characteristics of a Convict/Firemouth mix.

[Tiger15]

Blue Dampsey is another inbreed mutant that is infertile. But BD will mate with a normal dampsey to produce fertile youngs with a certain percentage that stay as BD. BD has quite a bit of deformity in finage and many people have trouble raising them to adulthood. The largest one I have seen is 6 inch.

Black angels were developed in Hong Kong and they have low fertility and high fry mortality. At one time, there was a rumor that breeders in Hong Kong had applied infertility drug to protect their monopoly of the trade.

Flowerhorn was created in Singapore and Malaysia. As quoted above, some irresponsible breeders even attempted to spread the rumor that FH is a hybrid between African cichlid and gourami. This one won't work because FH is so fertile that a lot of youngs are flooding the market.

BP was created in Taiwan. Some Florida fish farmers claimed that BP was first produced in Florida by accident, but culled. I don't know where the hybrid rumor began but now it has become the accepted truth. There is a LFS in Philly China town that sell many BP and FH. I have seen a BP and normal Striped Midas paired up and produce fertile eggs and youngs. Here are a couple picture of the offspring that exhibit an interesting range of color and pattern:

"http://www.geocities.com/bluespeacock/parrot3.jpg"

"http://www.geocities.com/bluespeacock/parrot1.jpg"

[JimG]

Originally posted by Tiger15
Blue Dampsey is another inbreed mutant that is infertile.

Black angels were developed in Hong Kong and they have low fertility and high fry mortality. At one time, there was a rumor that breeders in Hong Kong had applied infertility drug to protect their monopoly of the trade.

I have seen a BP and normal Striped Midas paired up and produce fertile eggs and youngs.


Blue Dempseys are hybrids not inbreds. Inbreds are NOT infertile.

There is no such thing as any drug which will cause infertility in fish - this is a myth.

Sure, a female BP produces fertile eggs which a male Midas can fertilize, no prob.

[Rare Cichlids]

No Jim. Blue Dempsey's are NOT hybrids at all. They are mutation of the original Dempsey.

Look here for a discussion on Blue Dempsey's where Jeff Rapps (the sole distributer) comments on them and puts to rest the myth that they are hybrids.


http://208.51.130.220/~mojo/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=CA_SA;action=display;num=1043330935

[thom336]

i fully agree with rare cichlids there, the blue dempsey is not a hybrid, but is in fact a variation, or mutation, on the origional dempsey brought about through selective line breeding. however, i have not heard of them begin infertile before, so i go with JimG on that point.

goldfries, it is known that the flowerhorn is of trimac origin, but the other parent species is still uncertain to the general hobby. the convict and firemouth are two possible candidates for this parentage, and so this could be why you are seeing their physical characteristics within the flowerhorn.

[Tiger15]

Flowerhown are primarily hybrid of Trimac and Red Devel or BP to enhance the red. But other CA genes were introduced such as Texas cichlid for spots and Jaquar for pattern in some varieties. So FH is not a monolithic hybrid but a cocktail of multiple CAs still under experimentation. The hybrid line has not been fixed and so their offsprings are highly variable and only a few will grow up to become show specimen.

FH's resemblance to Firemouth and Convict is simply color coincidence, though it is possible for the two fish to cross breed. Convict is nicknamed playboy of CA as it has been known to successfully cross breed with Salvini, Red Devel/BP, Jaquar, Dampsey, Firemouth, among other CA cichlids.

[JimG]

Originally posted by thom336
i fully agree with rare cichlids there, the blue dempsey is not a hybrid, but is in fact a variation, or mutation, on the origional dempsey brought about through selective line breeding. however, i have not heard of them begin infertile before, so i go with JimG on that point.


OK I may well be wrong here, I confess I don't really know that much about the Blue Dempseys though I'd thought they had been hybridized with some other cichlid, perhaps the fish I saw I was told was a Blue Dempsey and which certainly appeared to have been hybridized was in fact not a Blue Demsey.

Though if Blue Demseys are just the result of selective line breeding they aren't infertile.

[Tiger15]

There are couple good web sites to settle on the origin of Blue Dampsey which is found by WetmanNY:
http://luzardo.elacuarista.com/
http://www.elacuarista.com/secciones/tfhblue.htm

Blue Dampsey was created by a South American who is ethical enough to tell the truth. BP and FH were Asian creation and for the sake of profit, they never told the truth. BP is probably an accidental mutation like BD and FH is a methodical creation.

[thom336]

Originally posted by Tiger15
BP is probably an accidental mutation like BD and FH is a methodical creation.

i must post my disagreement to the BP being seen as an accedental mutation. however, there is a fair case for this...
- the BP gene pools were not stable at first, and still are not as stable as they could be, and different BP's can grow to dramatically different sizes, which suggests that, if they were not an accedent, then not alot of thought was put into stabilising them as a fish
- they are not the most attractive of fish, and if hybrids were to be produced, then you would think that the breeders would want to make them appealing, then again some people find them quite good looking, including our very own JimG.....

but i dont think that they are an accedental hybrid. it is true that hybrids can be accedently come across, but they are very hard to stabilise, and for them to be stabilised to the level of the BP, no matter how unstable this may be, it suggests that expertise were put into it. also, not many accedental hybrids make it into the market at such an internationally commercial level, and most are culled at birth, which is what i suspect would have happened if this was an accedent. finally, fish farms that produced the BP would probably be very selective about their breeding of fish, and so would not allow for two quite similar species to cross, as would have happened to produce the BP.

but i think this is another topic altogether...

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by JimG
Though if Blue Demseys are just the result of selective line breeding they aren't infertile.

If you read up on them you will see they are not the result of selective line breeding. But instead, as has already been said, the result of a random mutation. There was no methodical line breeding to "create" the blue dempsey. Instead, it was just a chance mutation that appeared in a batch of otherwise normal fry.

Tiger did not say he thought BP's were an accidental hybrid. But an accidental mutation like the blue dempsey.

[Haggisman]

Hey Jim, its T from the BP forum.

Hawkeye has just had a batch or fry from a BPxBP pairing, shes gonna snap some pics just in case they eat the fry...

Just though you would like to know and your welcome back anytime......

[thom336]

Originally posted by Haggisman
Hawkeye has just had a batch or fry from a BPxBP pairing, shes gonna snap some pics just in case they eat the fry...

so that concludes that male BP's are not infertile....

[JimG]

Originally posted by thom336


so that concludes that male BP's are not infertile....



Well a verified case of a BP male fertilizing eggs would demonstrate that at least a very few of them are not infertile. We all know though that the vast vast majority of BP males are not fertile though. What I have read geneticists state is that "virtually" all hybridized males are sterile and among mammals at least science has been unable to verifiy a case of a male offspring between two different species then procreating himself (though female mules for example can do so). No one would be happier than I if someone could start a BPxBP line so that then inline breeding could begin to eliminate the various traits BPs sometimes suffer we find undesirable.

Though I must point out again IF BPs really are just a mutant strain of some other single species why haven't they been inline bred by everyone with a hankerin'? Within mutant lines of fishthe fry readily breed with one another, there is no sterility.

[thom336]

i agree that a large proportion of the males may be infertile (my use of 'may' is becuase i do not have any personal experiance of it). but there are those that are fertile, and so it was an incorrect staement that male BP's are sterile, and i just wanted to get that clear.

[JimG]

Originally posted by Haggisman
Hey Jim, its T from the BP forum.
Hawkeye has just had a batch or fry from a BPxBP pairing, shes gonna snap some pics just in case they eat the fry...
Just though you would like to know and your welcome back anytime......


Wow cool T please tell Hawkeye good luck - if I were her I'd be getting me a fry tank and saving them. BPs go for big $$.

Thank you for the invite back, take care.

[JimG]

Originally posted by Rare Cichlids
If you read up on them you will see they are not the result of selective line breeding. But instead, as has already been said, the result of a random mutation. There was no methodical line breeding to "create" the blue dempsey. Instead, it was just a chance mutation that appeared in a batch of otherwise normal fry. Tiger did not say he thought BP's were an accidental hybrid. But an accidental mutation like the blue dempsey.


But again blue dempseys can be readily inline bred BDxBD to select for the desirable traits right? Again if BPs were just a chance mutation that occured in a batch of otherwise normal fry of some other single cichlid species they could be readily inline bred or at the very least the traits would be popping up in the species population like they do with the BD. When taxonomists list BDs they don't label them CichlasomaxCichlasoma as they do with BPs, they have a scientific species name, BPs don't and there is a reason for that.

Sometimes in evolution speciation can work quite swiftly, but for a new species to accumulate enough mutations so that it can only hybridize with its parent or cousin stocks rather than breed freely it takes a long time with the mutant offspring population genetically isolated from the stock of origin. We humans designate species through taxonomy previously with anatomical similarities and today even with genetic studies. Sometimes species of the same family surprise us and turn out to be closer related than we thought by being able to produce offspring and scientists even change genus designations over such discoveries.

[Haggisman]

Yeah shes gonna save as many of the fry as possible.

Oh and another member has a BPxFiremouth spawning.....wonder what they will turn out like???

[JimG]

Originally posted by Tiger15
Blue Dampsey was created by a South American who is ethical enough to tell the truth. BP and FH were Asian creation and for the sake of profit, they never told the truth. BP is probably an accidental mutation like BD and FH is a methodical creation.

Ah so Blue Dempseys aren't for the sake of profit? C'mon.

Actually the Blood Parrot and FlowerHorn progenitors just never gave out any information at all. Though apparently the species used to generate FHs were more closely related genetically than those for BPs.

What I have read is that to produce BPs the 'breeder' must artificially mix the gamates of Red Devils and Severums (or I have heard Midas and Severums) as these species will not breed no matter how long you leave them in a warm tank with wine and nice music.

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by JimG
Though I must point out again IF BPs really are just a mutant strain of some other single species why haven't they been inline bred by everyone with a hankerin'? Within mutant lines of fishthe fry readily breed with one another, there is no sterility.

Have you still not read up on BD's? If the BP is infact a mutation like the BD, it would most likely have to go through the long process of crossing a BP back to a Midas, and then getting fish that showed half of the BP traits and then breeding one of those back to the parent BP and getting a certain percentage of BP fry. Don't quote me on that. I'm not entirely sure of the process. But if you do some searching you can find the discussion on BD's about this.

[JimG]

Originally posted by thom336
i agree that a large proportion of the males may be infertile (my use of 'may' is becuase i do not have any personal experiance of it). but there are those that are fertile, and so it was an incorrect staement that male BP's are sterile, and i just wanted to get that clear.

Yes and point taken if a case of BPxBP breeding can be verified. Though these cases should they occur are apparently so rare that my use of the qualifier "virtually all" to describe the preponderance of sterile male BPs is still comfortable to me.

[JimG]

Originally posted by Rare Cichlids
Have you still not read up on BD's? If the BP is infact a mutation like the BD, it would most likely have to go through the long process of crossing a BP back to a Midas, and then getting fish that showed half of the BP traits and then breeding one of those back to the parent BP and getting a certain percentage of BP fry. Don't quote me on that. I'm not entirely sure of the process. But if you do some searching you can find the discussion on BD's about this.

Too lat Rare Cichlids I quoted ya on it :D

No sorry I really haven't read up on BDs as yet, though I take the word of those on this forum that they are not hybrids. But then again I also take the word of those same folks who say they BD males aren't sterile either.

Actually if inline breeding for a specific trait or set of traits that appear in a population since those traits are likely to appear in more than one fry from the same parents the most effective way to select for those traits is to then breed pairs of the fry both male and female exhibiting those traits. The parents aren't going to phenotype the traits as they were a surprise in the fry right? Apparently male Severums won't naturally breed with female BPs or at least I have not heard of this occuring and neither will Red Devils (which might just kill their prespective BP lustmuffins since the BPs generally inhereted the Severum temperament) though I have heard of 'breeders' fertilizing BP eggs with Red Devil sperm to produce a 'super parrot' which is as aggressive as a Red Devil and looks a tad more like one.

[tomckey]

I just re-joined AC after a while of being away and stumbled upon this discussion. I only skimmed through all the posts so if I repeat someone's information I apologize. I have always been led to believe that one of the "red devil" types (citrinellum or labiatum) was artificially crossed (by stripping eggs and milt, like what is done with goldfish) with a gold severum to create a fish that is sold as a Rose Queen cichlid. I have sold these fish at my store. They are not as fat as Parrots and do not have as exaggerated a facial deformity as parrots. This fish was then crossed (most likely again artificially) with a synspilus, to create the parrot.
As far as breeding parrots together goes, I have had numerous customers report to me that their parrots go through the whole process, only to have eggs that will not hatch (infertile most likely). I did have one customer tell me that his parrots constantly had babies. I offered to buy babies from him but he never brought any to me, and later told me that he lost one of his adults. (I thought he was full of it to begin with). My opinion is that parrots are almost always sterile, but you may rarely find two individuals who are capable of producing offspring together.
With blue dempseys they are most certainly not hybrids (remember a hybrid is when two different specie breed and produce offspring). They are a color mutation of the regular jack dempsey. If you breed two blue dempseys you will not get any offspring as a double dose of the blue gene is lethal. You must breed a regular to a blue, those babies now all carry the blue gene. Then mate a blue dempsey to one who is carrying the gene, and you will get 50% blue dempseys, and 50% who carry the gene. You can also mate two who only carry the gene and you will get 25% who are blue, 50% who look normal but carry the gene and 25% who are normal in every way. For those of you who are familiar with genetics I apologize but after 19 years in a LFS, I have learned never to take for granted what information people know, or don't know.
If anyone knows that any of my information is incorrect please reply back, as I always like to have the most accurate info possible for my customers.
Tom

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by tomckey
I just re-joined AC after a while of being away and stumbled upon this discussion. I only skimmed through all the posts so if I repeat someone's information I apologize. I have always been led to believe that one of the "red devil" types (citrinellum or labiatum) was artificially crossed (by stripping eggs and milt, like what is done with goldfish) with a gold severum to create a fish that is sold as a Rose Queen cichlid. I have sold these fish at my store. They are not as fat as Parrots and do not have as exaggerated a facial deformity as parrots. This fish was then crossed (most likely again artificially) with a synspilus, to create the parrot.
Tom

Thats a new one for me :) Welcome back

[JimG]

Originally posted by tomckey
As far as breeding parrots together goes, I have had numerous customers report to me that their parrots go through the whole process, only to have eggs that will not hatch (infertile most likely). I did have one customer tell me that his parrots constantly had babies. I offered to buy babies from him but he never brought any to me, and later told me that he lost one of his adults. (I thought he was full of it to begin with). My opinion is that parrots are almost always sterile, but you may rarely find two individuals who are capable of producing offspring together.
With blue dempseys they are most certainly not hybrids (remember a hybrid is when two different specie breed and produce offspring). They are a color mutation of the regular jack dempsey. If you breed two blue dempseys you will not get any offspring as a double dose of the blue gene is lethal. You must breed a regular to a blue, those babies now all carry the blue gene. Then mate a blue dempsey to one who is carrying the gene, and you will get 50% blue dempseys, and 50% who carry the gene. You can also mate two who only carry the gene and you will get 25% who are blue, 50% who look normal but carry the gene and 25% who are normal in every way. Tom

Wow Tom thanks for the info about Blue Dempsey breeding, interesting! Welcome back BTW, I just found this forum this last week.

I have been doing some brushing up on my biology with a little journal research and it appears that fertile male hybrids between two species are not impossible technically should a very rare mutation occur in the process of meiosis forming the spermatocytes in the hybrid F1 offspring though even if this extremely unlikely circumstance occurs it does not guarantee any fertile males in the F2 population. So if people are claiming to have fertile BP males they might just not be fibbing (or mistaken not taking into account the male convict grinning with satisfaction at the far corner of their BP tank) but it is very very unlikely because BPs are hybrids between two separate species.

I found this interesting journal entry recently supporting what I have stated previously regarding the fertility problem in male hybrids being within the meiosis of sperm cells. This article is even about a fish hybrid -

http://www.unifi.it/unifi/bioveg/Caryo/20255-1-10.html
spermatocytes from the hybrid "tambacu" showed gross meiotic configurations in all cells analyzed. The spermatocytes exhibited a few chromosomes or well synapsed chromosome segments, while many chromosome segments did not have any synapsis. This result, allied to other genetical and cytogenetical evidence, reinforces the hypothesis that the hybrid "tambacu" is sterile.

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by JimG


but it is very very unlikely because BPs are hybrids between two separate species.



Uh, your still stating as fact that BP's are hybrid, when the general concensus in this thread is that nobody knows and they are just as likely to be mutations.

[thom336]

as far as i am aware there is no doubting that the general concensus of this thread is that BP's are hybrids.

[Haggisman]

Pics to come of male and female BP's with fry....