Blood Parrot hybrid misinformation

[JimG]

Originally posted by RTR
Sorry, should have specified - the shop is Rick's Fish and Pet Supply in Frederick MD. 301-694-9664. They have no web or email presence.

Since the first positive breeding reports of BPs on the web some time back, my guess has been that these are not true hybids, unless within their own near kin. I would guess the likely source is the same sort of mutation as the ballon molly not that long ago, or the short-bodied goldfish.

Amelanistic coloring and long finned varieties are non-survival traits for most fish in the wild, but they are not hard to sustain in captivity. Some color forms are non-survival even in captivity and need to be heterozygotes to make it, but they are still around from breeders.

Thanks I think I will contact this shop just for jollies and ask them even though it is long distance for me. Though I find quite often that lfs workers have no clue as to what they are talking about and sometimes will lie if they think they will get a sale out of it. I have been searching the web and have found not one single example from a reputable verifiable source affirming fertile male blood parrots. I have seen a couple of claims in forums like this which I can retrieve no response from when I ask for verification. The problem with such mutations as ballon mollies or short bodied goldfish when compared to BPs is that breeders can readily inline breed those fish to select for those traits and select out undesirable traits. I am not sure what your point is regarding "non-survival traits" for fish in the wild, sorry, none of these traits selected through inline breeding for ornimentation cause infertility of any kind in the progeny.

Also the definition of species in taxonomy is quite fluid. Basically in the animal kingdom a species is a subgroup of a Genus which will not mate with other subgroups naturally in the wild. Some groups of animals we define as species in nature can and will mate in captivity and produce fertile offspring. Probably these groups shouldn't be regarded as separate species but rather as subspecies. I had a pair of lovebirds I had hoped to mate. For years the female laid unfertilized eggs even though the two often did the dance of love. Come to find out my male, a powder blue masked, was a hybrid between two distinct species of lovebirds from different areas of africa. Guess what? He was shootin' blanks!

 

[goldfries]

Severum are SA cichlid that live in soft acid water and Midas are CA that live in hard alkaline water. Not only the two fish require completely different water requirement, genetically, the two are remotely related and unlikely to cross breed successfully. The Midas and Syspillum cross is more plausible because they are closely related CA, but then the hybrid offsprings would not be infertile.

different water paremeters doesn't mean they can't mate.

BP is an Asian invention and its origin is a well guard trade secret. It is unfortunate that the BP rumor or intentional lie has become very successful and widespread that even experts have accepted it without question.

so you're a better experts than the experts? since it's invented it's gotta be from some where. definitely the parents weren't asian fish.

 

[lesley]

Just wanted to share that I took a class with Ron Coleman last semester and am thinking about asking him to be my advisor for my master's thesis. Kind of cool to see his name come up here.

 

[scholar]

Leslie hi,

This Bp issue can make a great project a nd master thesis!

 

[thom336]

sorry, i got lost some way back on this...i have trouble reading long texts on a computer screen, so i havent read it all. but im kinda trying to pick up the jist here...

Bp's are true hybrids...there IS another, non hybrid, cichlid known as the parrot cichlid in some parts of the world...and these two mustnt be confused. i think people need to check their on the same wave lengths...

and secondly, it is almost genetically impossible for a species to produce offspring that have ALL fertile females and infertile males. it is possible for BP's to spawn, and i have been informed of cases as such, however how the spawning is carried out is mainly unknown as there is very little written documentation on BP's.

and thirdly...what exactly are you lot defining as 'experts'? are experts those that have written a book? those that have a hpd (doctors)? those that have years of experiance in the hobby? those that have written thousands of posts on here? i think every fishkeeper has 'expertise' in different areas, but you cant really define someone as an expert over someone else, as there are many areas of fishkeeping, and many different methods and theories on fishkeeping, you cant really say that one persons is better than anothers - we are, in essence, all experts in our own right.

 

[goldfries]

agree.

i've been around town, seems that a number of flowerhorns exhibit the physical characteristics of a Convict/Firemouth mix.

 

[Tiger15]

Blue Dampsey is another inbreed mutant that is infertile. But BD will mate with a normal dampsey to produce fertile youngs with a certain percentage that stay as BD. BD has quite a bit of deformity in finage and many people have trouble raising them to adulthood. The largest one I have seen is 6 inch.

Black angels were developed in Hong Kong and they have low fertility and high fry mortality. At one time, there was a rumor that breeders in Hong Kong had applied infertility drug to protect their monopoly of the trade.

Flowerhorn was created in Singapore and Malaysia. As quoted above, some irresponsible breeders even attempted to spread the rumor that FH is a hybrid between African cichlid and gourami. This one won't work because FH is so fertile that a lot of youngs are flooding the market.

BP was created in Taiwan. Some Florida fish farmers claimed that BP was first produced in Florida by accident, but culled. I don't know where the hybrid rumor began but now it has become the accepted truth. There is a LFS in Philly China town that sell many BP and FH. I have seen a BP and normal Striped Midas paired up and produce fertile eggs and youngs. Here are a couple picture of the offspring that exhibit an interesting range of color and pattern:

"http://www.geocities.com/bluespeacock/parrot3.jpg"

"http://www.geocities.com/bluespeacock/parrot1.jpg"

 

[JimG]

Originally posted by Tiger15
Blue Dampsey is another inbreed mutant that is infertile.

Black angels were developed in Hong Kong and they have low fertility and high fry mortality. At one time, there was a rumor that breeders in Hong Kong had applied infertility drug to protect their monopoly of the trade.

I have seen a BP and normal Striped Midas paired up and produce fertile eggs and youngs.

Blue Dempseys are hybrids not inbreds. Inbreds are NOT infertile.

There is no such thing as any drug which will cause infertility in fish - this is a myth.

Sure, a female BP produces fertile eggs which a male Midas can fertilize, no prob.

 

[Rare Cichlids]

No Jim. Blue Dempsey's are NOT hybrids at all. They are mutation of the original Dempsey.

Look here for a discussion on Blue Dempsey's where Jeff Rapps (the sole distributer) comments on them and puts to rest the myth that they are hybrids.


http://208.51.130.220/~mojo/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=CA_SA;action=display;num=1043330935

 

[thom336]

i fully agree with rare cichlids there, the blue dempsey is not a hybrid, but is in fact a variation, or mutation, on the origional dempsey brought about through selective line breeding. however, i have not heard of them begin infertile before, so i go with JimG on that point.

goldfries, it is known that the flowerhorn is of trimac origin, but the other parent species is still uncertain to the general hobby. the convict and firemouth are two possible candidates for this parentage, and so this could be why you are seeing their physical characteristics within the flowerhorn.