I could see the Cyanoguttatum picking and choosing mates, but in a no-choice or little-choice situation, I don't see why a Carpinte wouldn't be considered to be a viable choice...As you've said before in your other posts, Cichlids are choosy...and maybe the Cyanoguttatum in Loiselle's quote is just picky in that case.
hybrids
- Thread starter dave76
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Maybe, but I doubt that. Carpinte and Texas Cichlid were forced to mate a lot of times is due to "no choice" situation. If there was a male carpinte for that ripe female...who do you think the female will choose, Carpinte, the TC or the Salvini? IMO, I think it has a lot to do with sexual evolution. A female rather looks for a mate that can give her great looking kids....stronger...and be able to survive and etc. Maybe, the female Carpinte didn't see what the Texas Cichlid could provide for her and her off springs.
I'm not saying that they (TC and C) can't and don't breed. I'm saying that in nature they don't do so easily (almost impossible unless interfere by human). And in tank only because they were being put in the situation...if there were only Carpinte and Texas Cichlid and no other fish.
And honestly, why would we want to breed these fishes together? Why can we try to keep them pure? And I'm sure many people out there are looking for pure breed trimac (FH was mistaken as Trimac), or Midas, or Red Devil, or other famous fishes.
Like my Carpinte, she is pure breed. And I don't plan on breeding her with a Texas Cichlid. To do so, possibly will cause the next generation...pattern and color not as great. And I have planned on getting another Carpinte from Jeff Rapps to breed this beautiful specie, 'Escondido'.
As for the article, was Dr. Loiselle supposed to state every case he witnessed? Or was he supposed to conclude from his observation and experience? He would not state all that if he didn't have enough data to support his theory.
I'm not saying that they (TC and C) can't and don't breed. I'm saying that in nature they don't do so easily (almost impossible unless interfere by human). And in tank only because they were being put in the situation...if there were only Carpinte and Texas Cichlid and no other fish.
And honestly, why would we want to breed these fishes together? Why can we try to keep them pure? And I'm sure many people out there are looking for pure breed trimac (FH was mistaken as Trimac), or Midas, or Red Devil, or other famous fishes.
Like my Carpinte, she is pure breed. And I don't plan on breeding her with a Texas Cichlid. To do so, possibly will cause the next generation...pattern and color not as great. And I have planned on getting another Carpinte from Jeff Rapps to breed this beautiful specie, 'Escondido'.
As for the article, was Dr. Loiselle supposed to state every case he witnessed? Or was he supposed to conclude from his observation and experience? He would not state all that if he didn't have enough data to support his theory.
Okay, I should point out here that I don't like seeing the two bred, but I am amazed that the Cyanoguttatum would pick other, less-related, cichlids for breeding purposes. Maybe this would be a strong argument for splitting the genus Herichthys as it currently stands???
That was actually the whole point of the article by Dr. Loiselle. He was arguing about the breed of Herichthys, 3 fishes from the same group, but they are different from each other. (Whole article was mainly about Texas Cichlid.)
As I mentioned...what the Carpinte did (mentioned in Dr. Loiselle article), possibly could be due to sexual evolution (selecting the best) and nothing to do with the fish from same group, IMO. Dr. Loiselle was trying to make a point to UK researchers. I mean...honestly...many SA/CA cichlids are different from each other even though they could be from the same groups...like Amphilophus, Geophagus, Parachromis, Nandopsis, and etc.
We can't assume that the species from the same group will breed willingly with each other. AND neither should we breed them together. Who knows what kind of fish we can create from human interference. Like my mix Blood Parrot, his sire was a midas and mom was Tailess Blood Parrot (I didn't breed them). Sure they can breed, but would they breed willingly if they were in free choice situation? I doubt that heavily. Due to this human interference, my mix Blood Parrot was created. This fish has unpredictable temper. And his hardiness is stronger than his parents. It is good in a way...to be able to survive all hardship/water...but he is deformed in a way (slow swimmer). And there is always a but for hybrid/cross breed/......
As I mentioned...what the Carpinte did (mentioned in Dr. Loiselle article), possibly could be due to sexual evolution (selecting the best) and nothing to do with the fish from same group, IMO. Dr. Loiselle was trying to make a point to UK researchers. I mean...honestly...many SA/CA cichlids are different from each other even though they could be from the same groups...like Amphilophus, Geophagus, Parachromis, Nandopsis, and etc.
We can't assume that the species from the same group will breed willingly with each other. AND neither should we breed them together. Who knows what kind of fish we can create from human interference. Like my mix Blood Parrot, his sire was a midas and mom was Tailess Blood Parrot (I didn't breed them). Sure they can breed, but would they breed willingly if they were in free choice situation? I doubt that heavily. Due to this human interference, my mix Blood Parrot was created. This fish has unpredictable temper. And his hardiness is stronger than his parents. It is good in a way...to be able to survive all hardship/water...but he is deformed in a way (slow swimmer). And there is always a but for hybrid/cross breed/......
I must have been thinking about a different article then...
Okay, I see. I don't like hybridization either...but there are some useful applications. Did you know that many of the Angelfish commercially available are Pterophyllum scalare/P. altum hybrids? This helped alleviate the problems with the Angelic plague.
Okay, I see. I don't like hybridization either...but there are some useful applications. Did you know that many of the Angelfish commercially available are Pterophyllum scalare/P. altum hybrids? This helped alleviate the problems with the Angelic plague.
Do you know that most domesticated live bearers are hybrid of Swordtail, Platy, Molly and Variatus? Very few pure breed live bearers can be found in domesticated stock.
Do you know that all domesticated Discus are hybrid of several wild species or subspecies depending on how they are classsified. Domesticated discus are the most engineered fish that come up with numerous color and pattern that will never be found in the wild.
Do you know that domesticated Red Devel are hybrid decendents of Midas and Labiatus? Wild red form Midas and Labiatus are rare and they are not as intesely red as domesticated Devel. the most intensely red Devel are the Blood Parrots, which are actually matuant Red Devel, not a new hybrid as most believe.
Do you know that many farm raised food fish, such as Tilapia, Striped Bass and Salmon, are hybrid? Environmentalists are concerned that many farm raised Salmon have escaped and cross bred with wild Salmon tereby reducing gentic diversity.
Do you know that natural hybrids do occur in wild fish, though extremely rare. At least one fresh water live bearer and one coral fish bibrid have been documented.
Do you know that all domesticated Discus are hybrid of several wild species or subspecies depending on how they are classsified. Domesticated discus are the most engineered fish that come up with numerous color and pattern that will never be found in the wild.
Do you know that domesticated Red Devel are hybrid decendents of Midas and Labiatus? Wild red form Midas and Labiatus are rare and they are not as intesely red as domesticated Devel. the most intensely red Devel are the Blood Parrots, which are actually matuant Red Devel, not a new hybrid as most believe.
Do you know that many farm raised food fish, such as Tilapia, Striped Bass and Salmon, are hybrid? Environmentalists are concerned that many farm raised Salmon have escaped and cross bred with wild Salmon tereby reducing gentic diversity.
Do you know that natural hybrids do occur in wild fish, though extremely rare. At least one fresh water live bearer and one coral fish bibrid have been documented.
There was an article in the FAMA about a hobbyist who went to Nicaraquen fish market and took picture of many Midas food fish. They are only pinkish red, not as strongly red as domesticated ones.
Blood Parrot hybrid heritage has been the best kept lie or rumor that even cichlid experts like Pam, Ron Coleman and Dr. Louriselle have quoted it without question. A recent article in the TPH suggests that Blood Parrot is actually a mutant with recessive genes similar to Blue Dempsey and this is why BP and BD are infertile but can only be bred with another normal Devel or Dempsey.
If a person can't tell the differences between a Midas and Red Devil...and can mess up the name...this debate is pointless.
As far as Im concerned Midas and Red Devils are the same fish if you ask me. They are just changing the names of these fishes every 10-15 years.
Just like the Festae is now called the Red Terror!
Just like the Manguense is now called the jaguar cichlid
Fish store owners are just changing names to make the hobbyists think that they have some new fish on the market.
At a local fish store in Maryland, there is a particular owner who is breeding Festae's with Flowerhorns to create a new cichlid called the Golden Butterfly. Just wait until that hits the market!!!
Just like the Festae is now called the Red Terror!
Just like the Manguense is now called the jaguar cichlid
Fish store owners are just changing names to make the hobbyists think that they have some new fish on the market.
At a local fish store in Maryland, there is a particular owner who is breeding Festae's with Flowerhorns to create a new cichlid called the Golden Butterfly. Just wait until that hits the market!!!
Midas and Red Devil are two different fish. They are from the same lake, but they do have different physical features.
Midas scientific name is Amphilophus Citrinellus. Red Devil scientific name is Amphilophus Labiatus. LFS do breed these to fish together and sell them out as Red Devil. It is hard to find pure breed Red Devil today, unless you got them from Jeff Rapps. Even in the wild, Midas and Red Devil will breed together. I don't know how often. Dr. Paul Loiselle said unless they are in "no choice" situation. *shrug*
As for Red Terror...that's commen name for Amphilophus Festae. Jaguar is commen name for Parachromis Managuense.
Midas scientific name is Amphilophus Citrinellus. Red Devil scientific name is Amphilophus Labiatus. LFS do breed these to fish together and sell them out as Red Devil. It is hard to find pure breed Red Devil today, unless you got them from Jeff Rapps. Even in the wild, Midas and Red Devil will breed together. I don't know how often. Dr. Paul Loiselle said unless they are in "no choice" situation. *shrug*
As for Red Terror...that's commen name for Amphilophus Festae. Jaguar is commen name for Parachromis Managuense.
