You should post some pics of the cuttlefish tank whenever you get around to setting it up.
Is a zebra pleco worth it?
- Thread starter Ijustlikefish
- Start date
Why stop a nice debate? It’s interesting to get various points of view and this has turned into an informative thread on breeding and conservation. Granted it’s a little heated, but that’s ok too.
I vowed not to post here again but I have no choice. Mostly because Wyite ignored a lot of what I posted.
He paid 0 attention to selling zebras for $85 last year.
When I got my first group, it was a stroke of luck. Prior attempts had mostly failed and I lost my first two zebras. Both were purchased from another keeper who also got them before the onset of the Approved Lists. he sold them to me an 2003.
But here are the facts. The breeding operations in Asia do not sell zebras cheaply enough for anybody who buys to resell them at $50. I know how zebras are priced. An Asian farm now produces more zebras in a week than used to be smuggled out of Brazil alive over more time. Moreover, stores do not normally import quantities of rare fish in the numbers needed to get the best prices. And if they did, compared to hobby breeders like me, their other operating costs would mean they are selling at a loss at $50.
I sold my first offspring in early 2005. I did not list them on AquaBid. In fact, only once have I ever sold them at auction- listed 3 single fish a 1.75+ inches TL. They went for about 20% less than they should have and that did not include the cut taken by the auction.
Next, after 2006 I had about 100 zebras i could sell. I do not sell them at less than both six months old and at 1.5 inches TL. So all 100 were not immediately available. Moreover, they stopped spawning before year end. One stopped about Thankgiving and the other a couple of weeks before Xmas. Moreover, i started a thread on a fish site now long gone. it was called the Zebra Pleco Sage and i documented everything I did for several years. I managed to get the thread moved to another site dedicated to pleco. But it two closed and the thread was lost. That thread on small site had an amazing number of views. Sp I freely shared all my mistakes and successes from which other might learn.
As soon as word was out i had tank raised zebras available, I also began a waiting list. I could have sold many more fish than I bred and nobody ever complained about the price. My goal was simple. I really like these fish and wanted to keep them. I also knew every fish I could sell that spawned in my tanks was one more fish somebody obtained without their having to be removed from Brazil. At that tine the going price was $150/fish. And that was if one could even find them. As time passed and there started to be more breeders selling them, my price went to $125/fish at 1.5 inches. After that the price went to $100/inch with the first 1/4 inch free.
Finally I was selling close to breeding size zebras at between $175 to $200 each. Again I was one of the few offering at this size and i was below the going market rate for them.
But here was the best part for me as a hobbyist. The zebras paid for all my hobby costs bot tretoractively and then ion an ongoing basis. Plus they made a bit more. First they paid me back for the $3,500 they cost me. Then they made it possible for me to acquire more species. I am a fan of the B&W Hypans. So next came 173b, then L450, then L236. And then came the interesting part. I was presented the opportunity to buy super white L236 and L173, but to do this at a decent price, I had to buy a box of 100 zebras at $95 each. The super whites fell apart but were promised for 6 months later. I also had one DOA 173 and 3 DOA zebras plus the count was only 99. So I was owed a make good. for these.
To make up for this the seller made me an interesting offer. He had 11 wild caught L173 in his private collection. He did not breed them. He offered to send me the fish for me to try and breed them. He would still own them but I would be responsible for them. But if I succeeded,the offspring would be split 50/50. I managed to get them spawning with a bit of help from Ingo Seidel and Dale Ernst at CatCon 2016.
And then I had a call from the owner of these fish. i had started athread about the 173 on Planetcatfish incuding pictures. Apparently a customer of my seller's in Japan had benn following the thread and he contacted owner. The gentleman in Japan offered to buy the fish at S1,500 each. I told the owner I could not affor the pay that and he should sell them to japan. But my guy said that it was me who got them to be a proven breeding colony and he wanted me to have them.
After a bunch of hagling I agreed to pay $1,000/fish. But this amount would re reduces by about $3,000 he owed me in make goods, I eventually order 45 super whites, 30 more than the original order. These were tank raised fish breding Germany. It turned out the German breeder had very bad skin cancer and we knew nothing about this. he sold all his fish and what I received as super whites appeared to be a mix of leftover fish from his breeding program to produce a line of super whites. I describe them as a mix of regular 236 and then a bunch of fish that were more white and some very white but none were super white. but istill had these fish and they spawn. I have sold a breeding reverse trio and 14 offspring among other offspring. I have another reverse trio segregated. How many people offer proven breeding rare fish?
My true F1 L173 are sent to a seller who prices them at $300. He gets a bit over 1/3 of that and only pays me after he sells. The same place we bought 300 farmed zebras also breeds 173. They sell for $300 each in quantity. If you want to imprt them you will havr to cover shipping and all fees to land them. So, figure about another $400 plus for a box of fifty. Go ahead and see if you buy can buy L173s in the states. How many people of business are willing to import 50 fish for $15,400. if they lose 10% of the fish that means their cost will work out to $385/fish. Oh yes, the 173 take 4 - 5 years before they will start spawning.
i am not gouging people. I have never been the most expensive seller and I am usually more like the cheapest seller. I also pretty much know where all my Hypans originated. I know which were wild caught and which were not. Most were not. And most wild caught were exported before they started the Positive List.
Conservation takes a variety of shapes. One way is not to have them removed from native habitats. But demand will always prebent that. How many years and how much money and human time has America spent to prevent marijuana in the country and how successful have they been. Fish are similar in that respect. Because zebras are rare and were made illegal to export, the price is high and the smugglers went to work. The way to have stopped this was a captive breeding program in Brazil and not by me trying to set up a breeding program from my 13 fish.
But I do know this. Over the years I have provided about 500 zebras for buyers, about 30 or 40 were donated or incuded as extras. Morover, I did not want to continue to have to catch the exact fish I would be shipping and then photograph them for the buyer. Next I had to keep them segregated until they buyer approved and then paid for them. So I came up with the following satisfaction guarantee I put on top of the live arrival guarantee. Let me know if you know anyone else who offers this guarantee.
"If you are not satisfied with the fish you receive for any reason whatsoever, you can return them for a full refund. As long as the fish come back in good shape and are the same ones I sent, I will refund 100% of your cost including shipping to you and then for the return shipping to me. You have no financial risk."
I am happy to say that so far nobody has ever sent back fish. i have had a few DOAs over the years and I always offer the standard DOA terms.
So I admit I do not sell my fish which now still sell for $125 to $15O for $50. But that still doesn't negate the fact that some 500 zebras got sold that were not removed from the wild.
Lastly, until the dam was built nobody knew which Big Bend fish populations might survive. There were plenty of well known experts who believed as I did, that zebras would not. I only changed my mind after the fact because Leandro and his team have done the work to know there is still possibly a viable population in the river. What he cannot say is how long this may last. He stated that the removal of very few fish could still cause the population to crash. So, that combined with the number of zebras now being bred in captivity was enough for me to conclude removal should no longer be done. if there are signs that the population is dying back, I will change my opinion again. It really was captive breeding all over the world that made this possible and I know my 500 offspring contributed to this.
So I still say to Wyite, you are completely wrong about me and what I have done. All I said was that it contributed to assuring the continuation of zebras existing as a species even if they become extinct in the wild. And that it reduced the number of fish removed from Brazil. In fact, with Leando saying a loss of as few as 100 more zebras might crash the population the fact that I had 13 wilds but none were illegally removed and that 500 more were not removed and sold means that I may have allowed for the population that still has the chance to stay viable to be there. Compare the survival of the species with the fact that I sold maybe $60k in tank raised zebras over 16 years. I did not get rich at $3,750 a year. And over those years I have donated about $4,500 to date in zebras and cash to fish related orgs and actual conservationists. Nor does this incude any of the other species I have donated or given away. I never held myself out as a dyed in the wool consrvationist, only that what I did contributed to conserving he species. There is a difference.
Lastly, I also know that a group of concerned people, including scientists, attempted to transfer a decent number of zebras to another river. The goal was for them to establish there. But the Big Bend of the Xingu has a unique structure in terms of its floor. There are all kinds of boulders and rocks which are almost unique to that section of the river. So when the scientists et. al. returned a year later to the river to which they had transferred the zebras, they could not find a single one.
Now, I am truly done with this thread and am also taking a vacation from posting on the site.
He paid 0 attention to selling zebras for $85 last year.
When I got my first group, it was a stroke of luck. Prior attempts had mostly failed and I lost my first two zebras. Both were purchased from another keeper who also got them before the onset of the Approved Lists. he sold them to me an 2003.
But here are the facts. The breeding operations in Asia do not sell zebras cheaply enough for anybody who buys to resell them at $50. I know how zebras are priced. An Asian farm now produces more zebras in a week than used to be smuggled out of Brazil alive over more time. Moreover, stores do not normally import quantities of rare fish in the numbers needed to get the best prices. And if they did, compared to hobby breeders like me, their other operating costs would mean they are selling at a loss at $50.
I sold my first offspring in early 2005. I did not list them on AquaBid. In fact, only once have I ever sold them at auction- listed 3 single fish a 1.75+ inches TL. They went for about 20% less than they should have and that did not include the cut taken by the auction.
Next, after 2006 I had about 100 zebras i could sell. I do not sell them at less than both six months old and at 1.5 inches TL. So all 100 were not immediately available. Moreover, they stopped spawning before year end. One stopped about Thankgiving and the other a couple of weeks before Xmas. Moreover, i started a thread on a fish site now long gone. it was called the Zebra Pleco Sage and i documented everything I did for several years. I managed to get the thread moved to another site dedicated to pleco. But it two closed and the thread was lost. That thread on small site had an amazing number of views. Sp I freely shared all my mistakes and successes from which other might learn.
As soon as word was out i had tank raised zebras available, I also began a waiting list. I could have sold many more fish than I bred and nobody ever complained about the price. My goal was simple. I really like these fish and wanted to keep them. I also knew every fish I could sell that spawned in my tanks was one more fish somebody obtained without their having to be removed from Brazil. At that tine the going price was $150/fish. And that was if one could even find them. As time passed and there started to be more breeders selling them, my price went to $125/fish at 1.5 inches. After that the price went to $100/inch with the first 1/4 inch free.
Finally I was selling close to breeding size zebras at between $175 to $200 each. Again I was one of the few offering at this size and i was below the going market rate for them.
But here was the best part for me as a hobbyist. The zebras paid for all my hobby costs bot tretoractively and then ion an ongoing basis. Plus they made a bit more. First they paid me back for the $3,500 they cost me. Then they made it possible for me to acquire more species. I am a fan of the B&W Hypans. So next came 173b, then L450, then L236. And then came the interesting part. I was presented the opportunity to buy super white L236 and L173, but to do this at a decent price, I had to buy a box of 100 zebras at $95 each. The super whites fell apart but were promised for 6 months later. I also had one DOA 173 and 3 DOA zebras plus the count was only 99. So I was owed a make good. for these.
To make up for this the seller made me an interesting offer. He had 11 wild caught L173 in his private collection. He did not breed them. He offered to send me the fish for me to try and breed them. He would still own them but I would be responsible for them. But if I succeeded,the offspring would be split 50/50. I managed to get them spawning with a bit of help from Ingo Seidel and Dale Ernst at CatCon 2016.
And then I had a call from the owner of these fish. i had started athread about the 173 on Planetcatfish incuding pictures. Apparently a customer of my seller's in Japan had benn following the thread and he contacted owner. The gentleman in Japan offered to buy the fish at S1,500 each. I told the owner I could not affor the pay that and he should sell them to japan. But my guy said that it was me who got them to be a proven breeding colony and he wanted me to have them.
After a bunch of hagling I agreed to pay $1,000/fish. But this amount would re reduces by about $3,000 he owed me in make goods, I eventually order 45 super whites, 30 more than the original order. These were tank raised fish breding Germany. It turned out the German breeder had very bad skin cancer and we knew nothing about this. he sold all his fish and what I received as super whites appeared to be a mix of leftover fish from his breeding program to produce a line of super whites. I describe them as a mix of regular 236 and then a bunch of fish that were more white and some very white but none were super white. but istill had these fish and they spawn. I have sold a breeding reverse trio and 14 offspring among other offspring. I have another reverse trio segregated. How many people offer proven breeding rare fish?
My true F1 L173 are sent to a seller who prices them at $300. He gets a bit over 1/3 of that and only pays me after he sells. The same place we bought 300 farmed zebras also breeds 173. They sell for $300 each in quantity. If you want to imprt them you will havr to cover shipping and all fees to land them. So, figure about another $400 plus for a box of fifty. Go ahead and see if you buy can buy L173s in the states. How many people of business are willing to import 50 fish for $15,400. if they lose 10% of the fish that means their cost will work out to $385/fish. Oh yes, the 173 take 4 - 5 years before they will start spawning.
i am not gouging people. I have never been the most expensive seller and I am usually more like the cheapest seller. I also pretty much know where all my Hypans originated. I know which were wild caught and which were not. Most were not. And most wild caught were exported before they started the Positive List.
Conservation takes a variety of shapes. One way is not to have them removed from native habitats. But demand will always prebent that. How many years and how much money and human time has America spent to prevent marijuana in the country and how successful have they been. Fish are similar in that respect. Because zebras are rare and were made illegal to export, the price is high and the smugglers went to work. The way to have stopped this was a captive breeding program in Brazil and not by me trying to set up a breeding program from my 13 fish.
But I do know this. Over the years I have provided about 500 zebras for buyers, about 30 or 40 were donated or incuded as extras. Morover, I did not want to continue to have to catch the exact fish I would be shipping and then photograph them for the buyer. Next I had to keep them segregated until they buyer approved and then paid for them. So I came up with the following satisfaction guarantee I put on top of the live arrival guarantee. Let me know if you know anyone else who offers this guarantee.
"If you are not satisfied with the fish you receive for any reason whatsoever, you can return them for a full refund. As long as the fish come back in good shape and are the same ones I sent, I will refund 100% of your cost including shipping to you and then for the return shipping to me. You have no financial risk."
I am happy to say that so far nobody has ever sent back fish. i have had a few DOAs over the years and I always offer the standard DOA terms.
So I admit I do not sell my fish which now still sell for $125 to $15O for $50. But that still doesn't negate the fact that some 500 zebras got sold that were not removed from the wild.
Lastly, until the dam was built nobody knew which Big Bend fish populations might survive. There were plenty of well known experts who believed as I did, that zebras would not. I only changed my mind after the fact because Leandro and his team have done the work to know there is still possibly a viable population in the river. What he cannot say is how long this may last. He stated that the removal of very few fish could still cause the population to crash. So, that combined with the number of zebras now being bred in captivity was enough for me to conclude removal should no longer be done. if there are signs that the population is dying back, I will change my opinion again. It really was captive breeding all over the world that made this possible and I know my 500 offspring contributed to this.
So I still say to Wyite, you are completely wrong about me and what I have done. All I said was that it contributed to assuring the continuation of zebras existing as a species even if they become extinct in the wild. And that it reduced the number of fish removed from Brazil. In fact, with Leando saying a loss of as few as 100 more zebras might crash the population the fact that I had 13 wilds but none were illegally removed and that 500 more were not removed and sold means that I may have allowed for the population that still has the chance to stay viable to be there. Compare the survival of the species with the fact that I sold maybe $60k in tank raised zebras over 16 years. I did not get rich at $3,750 a year. And over those years I have donated about $4,500 to date in zebras and cash to fish related orgs and actual conservationists. Nor does this incude any of the other species I have donated or given away. I never held myself out as a dyed in the wool consrvationist, only that what I did contributed to conserving he species. There is a difference.
Lastly, I also know that a group of concerned people, including scientists, attempted to transfer a decent number of zebras to another river. The goal was for them to establish there. But the Big Bend of the Xingu has a unique structure in terms of its floor. There are all kinds of boulders and rocks which are almost unique to that section of the river. So when the scientists et. al. returned a year later to the river to which they had transferred the zebras, they could not find a single one.
Now, I am truly done with this thread and am also taking a vacation from posting on the site.
I know this thread got a little heated, but I thought it was a good debate and very informative. I hope you reconsider leaving the forum. You give some very helpful advice and are an asset to the forum.
I didn't ignore it. You sold a relatively small number of them for $85.00 to a select privileged few who were members of the NEC. Hardly a grand effort to increase the breeding population base in the hobby. You accuse me of ignoring what you have posted. I haven't, the fact is most of it is a smoke screen. You've never addressed why breeders can't get together and start a breeding programthat really focuses on conserving the species without forcing people to pay greater than $50.00 a fish. It sounds like a lot of you know each other.
I adamantly disagree with any "conservation" strategy were the number of people who are able to keep the fish is severely limited by cost. Conservation of species is a very important topic with me. The plight of Wyoming toad had just been recognized when I was a junior in 1987, and the last 18 black footed ferrets had been captured and housed in the Sybille Wildlife Research and Conservation Center. I didn't get to participate as much as I liked with either, but I was informed. Look at the conservation plans for these two species and how they were returned from the brink of extension. Facilities that wanted them weren't limited by something arbitrary decided by a handful of people, as long as the facilities were equipped and prepared to follow a team-oriented conservation plan. Anyways, these two events left me with a feeling that I should be a strong proponent of conservation.
And I adamantly disagree with removing any from the wild and destabilizing an already stressed population.
I've said about as much as I'm going to say. I have very strong feelings on this issue. I've seen how well an organized agenda and plan can work.
I do want to point out to TTA that I never said I don't respect you. I actually said I respect your experience with the species and your right to sell them for what you want. I just don't agree that what you are doing is conservation in any way, shape or form and that you can't claim that it is. I can't change the way that you feel. Sorry you feel you can't post here any longer. We are both pretty set in our ways and beliefs.
WYite
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I completely forgot about your L-173s! They are the most pretty pleco out there. Also to end off this Therese I’m not gonna get a zebra pleco, instead I’m getting a school of green neons!
Not all, but many are. I haven't researched why. Here's a listing of fish by family, CARES Conservation Priority List. There are a lot of fish that should be on that list, from a number of families, but aren't.
I'm going to have to get involved again. Seven or eight years ago or so I wanted to get out of the RMCA and register as an individual, but couldn't at that time because everything was done by groups. Now they let folks register as individuals, I believe.
WYite
