Long Winded Newbie w/ Questions

[kikuchiyo]

jacblades: The fish does not understand "getting used to." It only understands it sees hiding places which it wants to go to, as it is in new territory and scared, but which it cannot reach. It doesn't get "used" to new fish - it might be frightened by them and desire the hiding places more. Here again is where basic biology would do you some service. The fish is incapable of higher thought; it can't think to itself "Well, darn, let me orient myself in this back and take everything in. I'll take a few notes, sit back and wait for this floating to end." Of course not! A fish reacts to its stimuli - and the one overwhelming factor on the fish during this is FEAR. It is afraid for itself. It thinks of nothing else, because it really cannot. Therefore, the fish wishes to make it to a safe place (as the ornamental fish we keep are prey for other fish and animals) and then slowly scope out its new home on its own time.

To quote myself (I don't see why I'm doing the searching when you're the one who doesn't know, since, as I said I already posted this onto this very forum):

"Actually there are a lot of good articles on the Net (and in Levine's Fishkeeper's Guide) that recommend not floating the bag but instead, if the temps are roughly similar and water parameters are similar (if you buy the fish locally they should be similar, but it would be wise to check), to just net the fish and put it in the tank. The logic is that a slight temperature change isn't as bad as the accumulation of ammonia and other nasties in the bag for 30 minutes to an hour. The stress of being caught and bagged leads to increased ammonia output. Additionally, the fish might be stressed by new visual stimuli and by seeing hiding places within the tank that it can't reach. Finally netting it keep the nasty bag water from fouling up the aquarium water. I wish I could find the article but there was a good one on the net describing various methods for acclimating new fish - the recommended way was to dose the aquarium and the bag with a stress coat product and a cholorine/ammonia removing product, net the fish and put it in the tank. It also recommended that for tropical fish the aquarium water be a few degrees warmer than the bag water and for coldwater fish for the aquarium to be a little cooler.

I've done both floating and just netting, but only with hardy fish. For fish like neons or fish from different water parameters than the aquarium's it seems like the best method of putting them in a bucket and dripping aquarium water in. Again, that's just based on stuff I've read.

EDIT: Found some of them, but not the one I was specifically referring to...
http://www.aquamaniacs.net/newfishselection.html

http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Acclimate.htm

http://www.bestfish.com/tips/050798.html

Don't forget that when you get the fish bagged, you want to minimize their stress; so when they're in the plastic bags, put those into an opaqe bag and then if you can, put that into a cooler or insulated container when you drive them home. Resist the temptation to gawk at them in the bags! Suddenly coming into the light will stress the fish further. Especially with the neons and cories you want to absolutely minimize their stress, so they get the best start on life then can in your tank; nothing sucks more than bringing home several of them and watching a lot of them drop off like flies in a few days."

Douzo. Feel free to read.

 

[kikuchiyo]

To quote the first link:

"Float methods:
Floating the transport bag is by far the most popular method of acclimation in the hobby. The prevailing conventional wisdom is to float the unopened plastic bag for a minimum of fifteen minutes to a maximum of 30 minutes. The purpose of floating is to equalize the temperature inside the bag to that of the surrounding tank water.
Pros:
* Floating is a very good way to equalize temperatures if the difference is not too vast.
Cons:
* Floating is not necessary if the LFS and your tank water match fairly closely and the drive home is a short one.
* Fish take days to acclimate to changes in temperature; your fish will surely die in the bag before then.
* Conditions inside the bag get worse the longer the bag is floated.
- The fish continues to reside in fouled water.
* Pathogens may be present on the outside of the bag.
- The LFS may have placed the shipping bags on the floor or on dirty counters.
* Gas exchange with the outside air becomes inhibited
- Fish may become asphyxiated if left floating for a long time. Never leave a floating bag unattended.
* Fish see safe hiding places they cannot reach and may begin to exhibit an escape response. This causes the fish to expel more CO2 and add to the worsening water conditions.
* Bright lights may add to stress
- Turn off the lights if you use a floating method.
Conclusion: Having suffered too many fish loses needlessly; I re-evaluated my acclimation approach and discontinued the practice of floating altogether. If the tank is equal to or cooler than the transport bag, you will have little trouble acclimating cold-water fish such as goldfish. Likewise, a tank temperature equal to or higher than the transport bag works well enough for tropical fish. Floating methods are very stressful and run contrary to our acclimation objectives.

Dump methods:
Dumping methods call for opening the bag and then simply pouring the fish out, including the shipping bag water, into the tank.
Pros:
* The fish do not suffer net damage or disruption of the slime coat barrier.
Cons:
* If the water has any drugs in it – you DO NOT want to dump them in your tank! When shipping overnight or on long drives home, many fish dealers add a mild tranquilizer to the water in the bag. If the water in your bag is blue, green, or pink, it probably has something you would rather not have in your tank.
* It just isn’t a good idea to dump all the fouled water from the transport bag, into your tank. This water can include ammonia and increased bacterial counts, along with potential pathogens, medications, or water treatment chemicals from the LFS. Bag water is a huge unknown and putting it in your tank is risky business.
* Any ammonia present in the shipping bag may become highly toxic if the pH of the tank water is 7.0 or greater. Biological filtration may not detoxify this added ammonia fast enough to prevent trouble.
Conclusion: Dumping methods run contrary to our acclimation objectives.

Net methods:
The fish are netted out of the shipping bag and released into the tank. The shipping water is then discarded.
Pros:
* Fewer pathogens are released into the water than dumping methods.
* The fish is removed quickly from the fouled shipping water.
Cons:
* The fishes’ slime coat barrier may become disrupted with rough net handling.
* Nets can be hard to maneuver inside a small shipping bag; causing needless injury.
Conclusion: Netting methods are far less problematic than dumping methods, and meet our acclimation objectives if care is taken while handling.

Drip methods:
The fish and shipping water are placed in a container on the floor. Water from the tank is slowly dripped into the container. The acclimation takes fifteen minutes. The fish is then netted and placed in the tank; the water in the bucket is then discarded.
Pros:
* Allows for slow temperature and water parameter acclimation.
Cons:
* The fish is not removed quickly enough from the fouled shipping water.
* The ammonia in the shipping bag may be rendered toxic if the tank water being added is pH 7.0 or greater.
* Bad things happen when you open the shipping bag, CO2 escapes, causing a rise in pH, which in turn makes ammonia much more toxic.
* Care must be taken to monitor the bucket closely as curious pets, children and bucket overflows may lead to disaster.
Conclusion: Drip methods are problematic but can be mitigated to some extent if used in combination with a dosing method. The goal should still be to remove the fish from the transport water as quickly as possible.

Mix methods:
Water from the tank is slowly added to the shipping bag during acclimation. Usually preformed while the bag is floated. Carries all the pros and cons of float and drip methods.

Dosing methods:
A dose of AmQuel and NovAqua (a capful per ten gallons or ten drops of each per gallon) is added to the receiving tank and a squirt of each is added to the shipping bag as soon as it is opened.
Pros:
· The AmQuel will neutralize ammonia.
· The NovAqua will provide slime coat protection from netting while stabilizing pH.
Cons:
· You must plan ahead and have AmQuel and NovAqua on hand.
· Water with less than 3* KH may see a pH crash when AmQuel detoxifies ammonia.
Conclusion: AmQuel and NovAqua are great tap water conditioners as well as handy for acclimating fish that have been shipped. An argument can be made for dosing no matter what other method is used in combination.

In closing:
If you absolutely have to float, consider keeping the bag sealed while floating and then do a quick dose and net to avoid the problems that occur when the bag is opened. Here are a few combinations and scenarios to consider, which are much better alternatives to the float methods:
* If the fish have been shipped a long distance, over many hours:
- Dose and net.
* If the drive was short and you bought your fish from a reputable dealer with similar water parameters:
- Dose & net or just quickly net.
* If you are absolutely certain of the conditions in the tank that the fish are coming out of, or the distance between tanks is short:
- Dose & dump, dose and net, or just dump or net."

The third link:

"What we rarely consider, however, is that the very act of floating fish can be stressful! Gas exchange through the plastic, which is pretty limited in the first place, is greatly reduced when the bag is wet on the outside. In addition, fish often panic in such situations, able to see safe harbor in their soon-to-be home, but unable to get there. Finally, in some cases, fish have been in the confines of a small bag full of fouled water too long already, and floating only extends their misery."

I refer you (once again) to my aquarium bible, The Fishkeeper's Guide, by Levine, which advocates the same thing. Levine comes to the trade as a hobbyist and a fish biologist so he knows what he's talking about. As far as I'm concerned, his word on fish keeping is the holy gospel.

Thank you, come again. Hehe, and the original poster thought he was long winded

 

[jacblades]

thanks. i just wanted to know the details of the topic. you dont always have to be rude to me.

 

[ash]

yeah, no offence kikuchiyo but you are getting really condescending.

 

[kikuchiyo]

If I was rude, I apologize.

 

[ash]

It's easy to do- communicating in this way leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation.

 

[Julia]

That was a very well organized and thoughtful post. Not long-winded at all. Thank you, kikuchiyo. And thank you for challenging conventional "wisdom" and repeating this info in different threads; misinformation is much harder to cure than mere ignorance.

 

[legacy]

wow... looks like i will no longer float my fish

thanks for the info!

 

[Watcher74]

I didn't pick up on any condescention. I thought it was quite interesting.

I thought that my float technique was going very well since I haven't lost a single fish when I brought them home and they would always eat within hours of getting in my tank, which I took to mean that they weren't stressed.

Looks like I need to reevaluate that concept now. Great info.

 

[kikuchiyo]

Like I've said I've done it with both ways with hardy fish (like bettas). I lost a cory catfish several months ago and I think floating was one of the major issues, though.