Ongoing battle with rescued Discus

[avionics30]

avionics30,

I haven't tested the tank's water since it stabalized. I will recheck it tonight and let you know. The last check was identicle to the tap, we're talking 50%-80% water changes daily/every 2 days, so there's not going to be a difference, if any. I would only expect nitrate to be slightly elevated.

If it's pH you are looking at, I do have one piece of driftwood in there that I've noticed to lower the pH. I was told that Discus prefer soft and acidic waters.

The Ph is just a surface indicator of other things and is normally affected by your level of KH. The drift wood releases acidic tannins that will cause your Ph to lower. Depending on how high your KH is will determine how much of the acid is required to lower your Ph and how quickly it will drop. With a low KH intorduction of even the slightest bit of acid could cause your Ph to plummet (crash). A KH of at least 4 is the minimum I would advise to maintain stability.

The big concern right now is the low GH and KH. It's just way too low. Discus do like soft, acidic water, but for juvenile fish, it's best to have a higher GH. I am wondering what your tank Ph/GH/KH is after the water has been in your tank for 24 hours with circultaion and aeration.

The GH mainly indicates the amount of magnesium and calcium ions in your water. There are other trace elements that make up GH, but are typically not significant in numbers, yet they ARE there. Anyway, your water is so soft that your fish may be suffereing from this. They require a certain amount of minerals in the water to survive. Without htem they cannot stay healthy enough to for them to defeat diseases.

Here is an example. My tap water in San Diego has a Ph of about 8 right out of the tap. My GH is around 16 and the KH is about 8. Since this is too high for BREEDING, I cut it with RO water. A mix of 75% RO water to 25% tap gives me a GH of about 8 and a KH of about 2. I add about a tablespoon of baking soda per 80 gallons to reconstitute my KH to about 4.

Now, my tap water is PERFECT for grow out. It's high in the minerals that are required for good health and growth of juvenile fish (less than one year) Most folks keep their discus in this type of water until they are ready to breed them.

IMO I would work as hard on getting your water right as you have with medicating the tank. I am almost positive that once you make these changes you will see a vast improvement. Make the changes slowly, possibly through drip methods to bring GH and KH up to where it need to be.

Best wishes!

 

[avionics30]

I took a look at your water report. What system are you on? Do all the systems feed in to each other? There are three.

To answer your above post, you'll need to start mixing your water with something like RO Right. RO Right basically puts back all the elements that are missing out of RO water, much like your water. At that time, you will have to bring the KH up with a little baking soda.

I'd invest in a large container or trash can, tub, storage tank... something. I would also mix this water ahead of time (like 24 hours) and test it before you use it to change water. Since you are having to add products to your water, I'd also place a power head in this container to circulate the mix until ready for use. This will ensure that all gas exchange has occurred and everything is mixed well.

I know this sounds like a pain, but you have not been blessed with acceptable tap water. It's easier to have hard water and come down through RO water. Having to add chemicals is a bit more tricky. Remember, it's not so much the Ph that you should be focused on. That GH and KH are very important as well!

 

[Star_Rider]

RO right is used with RO water to re-mineralize it

gh many use epsom salts-magnesium sulfate
kh use baking soda -sodium bicarbonate

good call by avionics(chad)

 

[avionics30]

RO right is used with RO water to re-mineralize it

gh many use epsom salts-magnesium sulfate
kh use baking soda -sodium bicarbonate

good call by avionics(chad)

Thanks star! I have had PLENTY of experience with core water perameters! Looking at the water report that Shawn sent, I think he's on a water system called the Catskill/Delaware system. The TDS of that system is only 48 compared to the TDS of the other that is listed at 188. If he was on the system with a TDS of 188, there would be no issues. It lists an average Ph bewteen 6.6 and 9.1 which tells me that his carbonate hardness is also very low. The GH and KH readings that he posted earlier are likely correct.

I would suggest Ro Right over Epsom salts due to the fact that the RO right would offer a more diverse mineral supplement. Baking soda is just the easiest thing to use to aid in KH supplement. Crushed coral may be another option. Place it in a filter and let it do it's thing.

 

[shawnhu]

I took a look at your water report. What system are you on? Do all the systems feed in to each other? There are three.

To answer your above post, you'll need to start mixing your water with something like RO Right. RO Right basically puts back all the elements that are missing out of RO water, much like your water. At that time, you will have to bring the KH up with a little baking soda.

I'd invest in a large container or trash can, tub, storage tank... something. I would also mix this water ahead of time (like 24 hours) and test it before you use it to change water. Since you are having to add products to your water, I'd also place a power head in this container to circulate the mix until ready for use. This will ensure that all gas exchange has occurred and everything is mixed well.

I know this sounds like a pain, but you have not been blessed with acceptable tap water. It's easier to have hard water and come down through RO water. Having to add chemicals is a bit more tricky. Remember, it's not so much the Ph that you should be focused on. That GH and KH are very important as well!

Thanks for that insight, didn't know KH could be too low for Discus. Figured everyone was complaining about too high this, too high that, thought my low levels would be ideal, guess not.

The water system I'm on is the Catskills, the first one, sorry for leaving that out.

I may not be able to do the bin method, since space is a huge factor.

 

[Star_Rider]

Thanks star! I have had PLENTY of experience with core water perameters! Looking at the water report that Shawn sent, I think he's on a water system called the Catskill/Delaware system. The TDS of that system is only 48 compared to the TDS of the other that is listed at 188. If he was on the system with a TDS of 188, there would be no issues. It lists an average Ph bewteen 6.6 and 9.1 which tells me that his carbonate hardness is also very low. The GH and KH readings that he posted earlier are likely correct.

I would suggest Ro Right over Epsom salts due to the fact that the RO right would offer a more diverse mineral supplement. Baking soda is just the easiest thing to use to aid in KH supplement. Crushed coral may be another option. Place it in a filter and let it do it's thing.

agreed..ro right would probably work better.

 

[shawnhu]

My options to increase the GH and KH so far is Epsom for GH, or RO Right(or any other mineral supplement) and Sodium Bicarbonate or Crushed Coral for the KH.

Here's my question on administering. It'll be near impossible for me to get a tub/bin to store water prior to water changes. The use of baking soda would be hard, since there is no storage bin. That leaves crushed coral in the filter. If I go this route and do 50% water changes daily, how would they react to the sudden 50% drop in KH? Do I need to sprinkle baking soda while adding water? Same goes with the RO Right/Epsom, add while water is going up?

 

[avionics30]

Thanks for that insight, didn't know KH could be too low for Discus. Figured everyone was complaining about too high this, too high that, thought my low levels would be ideal, guess not.

The water system I'm on is the Catskills, the first one, sorry for leaving that out.

I may not be able to do the bin method, since space is a huge factor.

Ouch! I figured you were the one with the TDS of 48. Although discus do require very low everything, it's by comparison. Most tropical fish fall in the middle of the scale. Discus are at the bottom of the scale. They like low TDS/GH/KH, etc.

Average (and this is just an average) TDS is more than 200, GH is more than 12 and KH is more than 8. See where I'm going with this? You are looking for the low end of the average. With growing out juvies, you want TDS less than 220 but no less than 100, GH no less than 5~8 degrees, and KH no less than 4 degrees (for Ph stabilization). With your tap TDS being 48, that is way too low.

Is it possible to get a large trash can to mix up some water and let it sit? Lot's of people use this method. Maybe something that you could fit in a closet? It will be necessary for you to mix this prior to adding it to your tank. I would be concerned that if you try to mix this in the tank that you will have issues with stressing the fish and causing further damage and stress.

Best wishes!

 

[shawnhu]

Chad,

Unfortunately, not an option at all. There's no space in my apartment at all, not even for another 10G tank. I've reached my limits. I think I will make a drastic turn and go with a planted tank, and control water parameters that way. If my TDS is so low, would that mean that it's not necessary for me to do as many water changes? I need to look for alternatives to having a bin, or I'll have to give these fish up.

If by going planted, and investing in a TDS meter, I can possibly control water changes, and the parameters better and stabalize the system without the need for a bin?

 

[avionics30]

My options to increase the GH and KH so far is Epsom for GH, or RO Right(or any other mineral supplement) and Sodium Bicarbonate or Crushed Coral for the KH.

Here's my question on administering. It'll be near impossible for me to get a tub/bin to store water prior to water changes. The use of baking soda would be hard, since there is no storage bin. That leaves crushed coral in the filter. If I go this route and do 50% water changes daily, how would they react to the sudden 50% drop in KH? Do I need to sprinkle baking soda while adding water? Same goes with the RO Right/Epsom, add while water is going up?

I wouldn't worry about matching the KH exactly when performig water changes. When I adjust, I add some, wait an hour, test and add more if necessary. Your fish won't be bothered by it. If you add crushed coral to the filter I would jusst let it do it's thing and not worry about it. Maybe test now and then to make sure that it's doing it's job.

What will bother them is the GH or TDS shift. You need to match that pretty closely using the RO right. If you can't get a storage bin or barrel, then you cuold try this...

Get a large pot and mix the RO right and tap water (with conditioner) and as you are filling your tank, add the pot of water with the RO right in it as you go. The trick, especially the first time, will be getting the mix just right. You might have to toy with it a bit until you know exactly how much RO right ot put in your pot of water that, once added back to your tank, will equal the 200ppm that you are seeking.

Does that make sense? I know it sounds like a lot but once you get a routine down, it won't be that hard.

Best wishes!