Safe Ich med for Clown Loaches?

  • Get the NEW AquariaCentral iOS app --> http://itunes.apple.com/app/id1227181058 // Android version will be out soon!

Tay690

Addicted to Loaches
Feb 5, 2009
666
0
16
the last thing I put in were my clown loaches probably...3 months ago maybe?

I know it's been at least 2 months since I've put them in
Thanks for the cleaning tip I wouldn't have even thought to clean the siphon and bucket etc

This stuff seems to be working pretty fast...whether the cysts have burst and dropped eggs yet I'm not 100% sure...but all the spots on the big guys tail are gone 2 days after treatment started

I'm going to continue for another 3-4 days just to be sure and continue with siphoning the gravel daily

Thanks very much Leah
You've been more than helpful
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
1
38
Deep in the heart of texas
Kordon Ich Attack is a good product. I called the company a few months back and was actually put through to their research biologist.

He said their research and controlled studies show it to be very effective and very safe. Wiil not harm inverts. He said one could do the twice daily dosing with no problems, and the only reason to raise heat is to speed the life cycle to the free swimming stage.

Dosing the tank twice a day is helpful to assure the product is at a good concentration when cysts rupture and the free swimming protozoans will be killed, though he said dosing once a day will do the job. I did the twice a day dosing.

I did water changes as normal to maintain good water quality.... I just dosed accordingly. No carbon filter during treatment. Didn't harm the biofilter.

I did vacuuming as usual with water changes. I don't believe I actually did have Ich at that time, but I continued treatment for two weeks just to be certain.

The biologist, a Ph.D., can't remember his name, but I do have his name and number in a file, said IchAttack also kills other parasites and is a good preventative if used once a week, (I think he said), or once a month, not sure, but it's on the bottle.

I just started dosing my tank. A Brochis I just treated for septicemia and cured has now got a few specks showing between the plates a few millimeters back of his gills.
I think I picked up the protozoans from my lfs in some plants, and his weakened immune system allowed the outbreak. No other fish in my tank show signs yet.
 
Last edited:

Tay690

Addicted to Loaches
Feb 5, 2009
666
0
16
So far it doesn't seem to be harming the fish whatsoever.
And Hi again Melody (My ADF's are doing amazing in my 15g standard dimension)

The water is a little murky and the med smells absolutely attrocious...
But I will gladly sacrifice my lunch to get my loaches healthy again lol

One thing that has me worried is that it doesn't really seem to be taking effect...and I've been dosing for about a week now (1 dose a day) but since I haven't been seeing results and the Ich has now spread to 3 other clown loaches...I've upped the dosage to twice a day (1 in the morning 1 before I sleep)

Am I doing something wrong? I'm vacuuming before I sleep and topping up the water I remove. But it doesn't seem to be helping whatsoever. Lights have been out the whole time during the med (I only turn them on briefly in the morning for feeding / medding and to see if the big Loach has lost the spots on his tail) I don't know what to do at this point

Thank you all for your help, it is greatly appreciated
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
1
38
Deep in the heart of texas
Hi, Tay. At what temp do you have your tank? Twice a day is fine, and in fact the biologist at Kordon said that may be more appropriate for some cases.

I would make sure the temp is elevated at least to 82 degrees or whatever is the highest safe temp for the loaches.

According to my notes, when speaking to the research biologist at Kordon, and as it says on the website:

"For well established or severe infections: double the dose. Continue treatments until a cure is effected. It is recommended that for double doses per day, one should be in the morning, the other later in the day."

"Note that some species of white spot disease (Ich) have only a few hours in the free-swimming stage at which time a treatment is effective in exterminating them. For these species of Ich treatments twice a day are essential for eliminating them to be sure none of the Ich escapes treatment."

"Do not skip any treatment. For Ich each white spot will produce up to 250 young (in marine species) or up to 1000 young (in freshwater species). If the Ich or other infection returns when Ich-Attack is used twice a day, it is safe to use a triple dose spaced throughout the day."


I am going to start the triple dose protocol for Ich. My Brochis seems to have fewer specks on his body near the gills, but I've noticed something that looks like some specks where his pectorals attach to his body.

None of the Ottos have any spots or flashing. I did a water change two days ago, and plan to do another this evening. I'm having a problem with algae right now that worries me about my biofilter. If it gets too gunked up I'm worried about the beneficial bacteria.

I tested parameters this AM and ammonia is 0, and nitrites are 0, ph 7.5
so I'm a bit relieved for now. Everyone is eating, but I'm feeding sparingly.

I'm not surprised that treatment with an organic herbal medicine is taking longer than some of the more powerful chemical agents.

One thing that I intend to do once this case is cured, is to dose my tank once a week prophylactically wit Ich Attack. The Ph.D Biologist at Kordon said it is a very effective preventative for many kinds of parasites and even fungi as well.

He told me that Kordon Ich-Attack contains 5% active ingredients consisting of five natural organic herbals, based on their containing patented naphthoquinones, and the therapeutic action of Ich-Attack on protozoan and other infections is due to its binding with cytoplasmic structures within the cell of the infecting organisms.

According to the biologist at Kordon, researching napthoquinones, from which antibiotics have been developed for use in humans and other animals, they have developed a patented medication that targets parasites, fungus, and some bacteria in fish.

Napthoquinones are a class of chemicals that are obtained from a fungus.

"Fusarium solani is a soil-borne fungus which, when grown on certain media, elaborates a class of secondary metabolites known as naphthoquinones. Several of these compounds have been shown to have antibiotic activity against certain bacteria and fungi." [H. Kern, Ann. Phytopathol. 10(3): 327-345 (1978)].


"Many antibiotics used in medicine today are secondary metabolites produced by cultures of various species of fungi, or are semi-synthetic analogs derived from these metabolites. The ability of bacteria to develop resistance to antibiotics over a period of time requires that new sources and new compounds be continually discovered as replacements. In some cases bacterial resistance to a given antibiotic can by overcome be effecting a minor change in the molecular structure of the drug. However, the constant selective pressure of antibiotic exposure has led to the emergence of highly resistant strains of certain pathogens, such as Staphylococcus aureus. The broad spectrum resistance acquired by these bacterial strains greatly increases the hazard of such infections.
Studies relating soil aeration to disease state have focused on the effect of low oxygen stress on the plant, or on the plant-pathogen interaction, without considering the effect of such stress on the pathogen itself. F. solani responds to low pH and other imposed stresses by synthesizing a number of naphthoquinone derivatives [D. Parisot et al., J. Gen. Microbiol. 126: 443-457 (1981)]. These compounds, and others derived therefrom via oxidation, possess both phytotoxic and antibiotic properties [A. W. McColloch et al., Can. J. Chem. 60: 2943-2949 (1982)].


Tay, I hope you don't mind all the additional information. I like to know the specifics of the research and development of medicines and their mechanisms in effectively treating pathological states. I left out a lot of information, lol, but this is probably more than you wanted anyway.

I hope your loaches and my brochis will be feeling better soon.
 
Last edited:

Tay690

Addicted to Loaches
Feb 5, 2009
666
0
16
There is no such thing as Too much information when it's about the well being of my fish lol

Thank you very much for that info...I might have to do a triple dose as it has spread pretty violently since this morning -_-

My tank is currently 78 degrees (it's always 80 but with the lights off that's as hot as i can get it)

The only thing that seems promising at this point is the fact that all my fish are happy and eating properly lol

I will continue to update this...hopefully with good news & good results :)
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
1
38
Deep in the heart of texas
Sorry I haven't checked on this thread in a few days. I hope all is going along OK.
The extra heat isn't absolutely necessary, but it does speed up the treatment process, and temps above 82 degrees prevent the free swimming protozoans from attaching to any other fish.

At this point, they are probably all prettty well covered in them, but continue with the Ich Attack. You will need to continue with the treatment for a longer period without increase heat, but it won't keep the treatment from working.

Remember, too, things will look a lot worse before they get better. This is because the invisible parasites on your other fish will develope into specks that you can see.

It doesn't mean it's spreading worse, they are already there, they just become obvious. After a few days the specks will drop off and sink to the substrate and form cysts which will rupture in a few more days. Then the free swimming protozoans are released by the thousands, but it is at that time that they are vulnerable to the Ich Attack, and they wil DIE!!!!

That's why dosing two or three times a day is needed to make sure the medication is at a good concentration.
That's also why vacuuming the substrate is important, to help suck up cysts that haven't ruptured yet.

I plan to keep treating my tank for 10 days after the last visible specks are gone. I want to make darn sure all those little buggers have been slaughtered, lol.
 

Tay690

Addicted to Loaches
Feb 5, 2009
666
0
16
Update time...
All the visable ich has dissapeared from the baby loaches...but my biggest and favourite loach still has a few visible spots on his tail

I don't know what to do...it's been pretty much 2 weeks since I've started the treatment and I've been doing 2 times daily for a week now...the water has such a high concentration of Ich attack that the water is actually brown in colour...and smells absolutely unreal

I'm really debating switching meds at this point...this stuff just isn't working...I'm scared for the fish also...I know if I don't clear it up they will probably die eventually...but I don't understand how they can breathe with such a high concentration of meds in the tank

I've refrained from doing my weekly water changes to keep up the concentration of medicine but am siphoning the gravel daily and topping up the water after (about 10% WC)

I'm stuck here...I don't know what to do...I have a 15g full of baby guppies but I don't want to throw the largest clown loach in there...for obvious reasons

Don't want the ich to spread and a 4 inch clown shouldn't be in a 15g in the first place...this is really depressing and I'm honestly at my whits end

Thanks for your support Melody
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
1
38
Deep in the heart of texas
Hi, Tay. For one thing, the treatment takes longer when you are not able to heat the water up and speed up the life cycle of the protozoan.

Also, I advise you to do a good water change. The med is not harmful but you may have a build up of harmful byproducts of decaying food, poo, and mulm.

I am still treating my tank and it's been 11 days. The website and the bottle both state that it can take longer for serious infestations.

I have been doing about 60-70% water change every 4 to 5 days, and time it so that after I've done the change it's time for one of the 3 daily doses I'm doing.

My Brochis still has 1 speck on his left side and 3 on his right, but due to the Ich Attack, in my opinion, no other fish have had any specks appear. I think keeping my water above 82 degrees has helped because I read in another post that the free swimming protozoan cannot attach itself to the fish at that temp or above.

The water temeperature issue, however, is not a problem in your case. It just can take longer. I do believe it is working for you, but you do need to change the water.

A large water change will not negatively affect the treatment. I would stay with it and don't move anyone out of the tank. Make sure your ammonia and nitrites are at 0, and the nitrates are around 20.

Any free swimming protozoans are being hit by the napthoquinones whose action is to bind with the "cytoplasmic structures within the cell of the infecting organisms."

Having said all that, to stress again your priorities:

Do necessary water changes, to remove ammonia and nitrites, right before time to do one of the regular doses of the Ich Attack.

Keep the parameters good. Your fish need pristine water to help them as they deal with the effects of the protozoan infestation.

Good vaccuming of substrate to keep mulm and gunk to a minimum and the cysts that may be in the substrate removed from the tank.

The website says that going 30 days will not cause harm to the occupants of the tank, but I don't think it will take that long.

Hang in there, keep your chin up and don't give up on this. It will do the job.
 
Last edited:

Tay690

Addicted to Loaches
Feb 5, 2009
666
0
16
Thanks again for your support,
I've just put a new heater in cuz I think my old heater died just today actually lol

I had the new one for about a month and it's brand new...So i put it in and I will raise the temp to 82 degrees over the next 24 hours

If it doesn't clear up within the next week I will switch to another med and use a half dose...

The params are always good in the tank...i've been checking them, nitrates were at 30 last week so i did a 25% and siphoned the gravel extra good and it's back at 20 ppm

the top up water changes that I'm doing aren't enough? 10% daily roughly is what i guesstimate should i still do the major WC if my params are good?
Edit: my reason for questioning this is in regards to lessening the concentration of medication currently in the tank

I will stick with this stuff ... but it sucks that just this one fish still has it, I wish his would clear up so at least I could see the light at the end of the tunnel

I'll keep it updated as hopefully I will have some positive progress to report

Thanks again for your help,
Taylor
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
1
38
Deep in the heart of texas
You are most welcome!

If your ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are good, then I wouldn't change what you're doing. The fact that the specks have disappeared from the baby loaches and there are just a few on the big guy says that the life cycle is progressing.

The specks drop to the bottom, form cysts that rupture and release the protozoan in the "free swimming" stage which is when they are killed. I would imagine that some drop off sooner and some later so you have an overlapping cycle of the stages of this parasites life cycle. That's why you continue until you have, according to the instructions on the bottle, gone "three or four days after the last specks have dropped off."

I'm going to go go seven days, I think, just to be darn sure all cysts have ruptured and released the free swimmers.
 
zoomed.com
hikariusa.com
aqaimports.com
Store