Slow die off has consumed nearly 20 fish!

[Cerianthus]

pH of 8.1 is not what I would call an ideal conditions for your fish and such draftic fluctuation from 8.1 to around 7 on daily basis (perhaps more?) is not a practice which will provide optimal/ideal conditions.

Wondering why pH is so high? Perhaps due to Mineralized Top Soil and/or tap.

Looking at your numbers, GH is bit high (hard water) but not detrimental for your fishes as I have kept tetras/corys in similar hardness but I would not call it optimal/ideal for either..

Dont know what kind of timer but timer is not what I would depend CO2 injection on as Injection should be determined by constantly changing water condition.

If it was my tank, what I would try to do is to stablize tanks pH around 7.4 (and of course GH will change if done properly) or below (better) without use of CO2.
Upon stablizing pH and/or providing ideal conditions for your fishes, and when all things are settled and no further losses/sickness, Only then I would consider CO2 injection in manner which will not fluctuate pH as much as it does now.

Since no q/t is desired by you and tank where all this couldve been caused by unideal conditions and drastic fluctuations, I dont see a point in medicating which in turn may cause more problems.

Hope this helped a bit and Good Luck!

 

[myswtsins]

When the CO2 is in use the ph doesn't get above 7.4 at night so it is not a huge flux usually. I have had CO2 injected tanks before with the same water, co2 tank, similar inline diffuser etc. with no issues. Tap is 8.2 same as all my other tanks, same as the tank that my original 6 ember tetras were in for over a yr without issue. The tetras and cories came from very similar water conditions too, pH 7.8, gh 7, kh 9 and they thrived in her water. Everyone says not to mess with pH so I don't want to mess with it. What is the proper way you suggest I stabilize it? Only way I know of to lower pH reliably and stably is to use RO water.

Since no q/t is desired by you and tank where all this couldve been caused by unideal conditions and drastic fluctuations, I dont see a point in medicating which in turn may cause more problems.

I'm confused, I never said I didn't desire QT....????

 

[mel_20_20]

I'm sorry you're having these losses. I think this could well be mycobacteriosis, but the splotches and streaks sound a lot like septicemia which can be caused by several different bacteria.

I've read the Walstad article and it made a big impression on me; that's when I decided to get UV sterilizers for my tanks. Seems a simple solution to help with disease prevention, in addition to good tank hygiene and maintenance, and quarantine of new fish.

It does seem reasonable to conclude that your tank has a pathogen in it and that all fish are exposed, though some may have stronger immunity to whatever this is and therefore are not showing signs of illness.

I wish I could help, but I'm not sure what the best course would be. I think I would definitely try a UV sterilizer.

If it were my tank I think I would get a good anti-parasitic food and get them on that for a while, just in case there is a parasite problem that may be leading to secondary bacterial infection.

I don't know if your fish were tank raised, or wild caught, but most wild caught fish have internal parasites and this could be part of the problem. I think Msjinkzd routinely puts the wild caught fish she receives in shipments on a medicated flake to treat empirically for parasites, you might PM her to find out what she uses.

The only other thing would be keeping your water pristine, try UV sterilization, remove/don't allow the formation any biofilm on the surface of the water, and see how things go. If this is fish TB then by doing these things you may have the same success she did in stopping the illness in her tank.

I hope things improve for you. Hang in there. I'm so sorry for your losses.

 

[myswtsins]

Thanks a lot Mel_20_20, for the advice and condolences! Are you currently using UVs?

I bought the fish from Msjinkzd. I know she has good stock that is properly treated so I think the fish were healthy when I got them but maybe some of my plants had something or it is one of those always lingering in the system type of things. MB sounds like a very likely suspect (still haven't read the while article but I'm working on it!).

I do have some Thera A on my list of things to order (actually it is a Christmas gift order but I am still tweaking it ) so I will get that and I am researching UVs right now. The filter with built in UV is nearly useless, 9watt bulb with 370gph is NOT very effective.

How do you remove surface bio-film? I just increase surface movement but if I lower surface agitation to a normal level again it comes back which to me says it is still there with surface movement, it's just mixing in the water. I see this more in my Mbuna tank with high bio-load.

 

[platytudes]

Either mechanically remove it...a beer bottle or other long necked bottle works well to skim, just scoop up one bottleful at a time.

Or, you could use a surface skimmer on your filter's input, try Googling hagen surface skimmer for example.

 

[SubRosa]

Once the system is contaminated with MB you must forever after consider any fish currently in or added to it to be infected. That goes for equiptment, nets etc as well. The only sure diagnosis requires involved expensive testing. In a circumstance such as you describe I would euthanize all livestock, sterilize anything that ever came in contact with the water and start over. I will admit a bit of bias in this regard as I have had the dubious pleasure of having caught an MB infection from a tank I maintained. As the following pics will show, it simply isn't worth the risk.

 

[Cerianthus]

When are some people going to accept/learn that many pathogens are always present in the tank? And fish are exposed to such at all times?

It is matter of controlling by providing ideal environment/proper maintenance/appropriate diet/tankmates, etc, etc. in order for fish to maintain their health. Weakened/stressed fish have deteriorating immune system thus such fish may develop infections.
Because fish manage to survive in whats considered extreme conditions doesnt necessarily mean they are at their optimal health as you are faced with puzzling siutuation now.

Be it MB/EM or what ever pathogens, q/t is best option for sick fish as it is easier to treat in q/t w/o affecting main system as well as minimizing chance of further spreading to other fishes.

It is your tank and your fish, so you can determine the path of actions but if it continues (hopefully not) no matter what you do, try removing all remaining fishes into another set up with ideal water conditions if you dont want to mess with exisitng set up.

No matter where fish came from, any new livestocks (including inverts/plants) can carry/bring in new pathogens. Only fish that I know which doesnt carry possbile pathogens are battery operated fishes right out of box, LOL!

Look into not just MB/EM, but also other diseases as well to broaden your horizon. And there are endless things to learn. Because one read something new, do not develop habit of just attributing all unexplainbale diseases to newly read articles. Look into other possibilities including its environment.

I find reading articles very beneficial/crucial sometimes but could be speculative sometimes when one never actually experienced it.

Pics are scary , isnt it? It is very rare though and appropriate precaution should eliminate such mishaps.

Im glad I never developed such in my yrs in fish keeping and hope no one does.

Hope all goes well whichever actions you may take!

 

[myswtsins]

Yikes, that doesn't look pleasant SubRosa!

Cerianthus, you are quick to disagree with everyone else's diagnosis but you didn't really respond to my questions and comments that were directed at you. Do you think 7.4 to 7.0 is too big of a night to day pH swing? Everything I have read says not but I am always opening to new opinions.

Your diagnosis is "not ideal water conditions", which has been proven to not be as critical as once thought and certainly not as harmful as rapidly changing conditions and poor maintenance, wouldn't the fact that my original tetras came from the exact same water and the new tetras & cories came from very similar conditions prove that there must be something else playing a role here?

How do you suggest I correct the water condition?

Just to clarify I do use QT for new arrivals AND sick fish. You say QT is best because it is easier to treat the fish, but what am I treating for and how?

Opinions are great but I am looking for answers please, I don't want to destroy my tank (which would have to be ALL my tanks because I use a python for WCs on all my tanks except QT) so I am open to ALL solutions. I have researched this a lot and it leads me to too broad of possibilities and again that is why I come here.

 

[Cerianthus]

Yikes, that doesn't look pleasant SubRosa!

Cerianthus, you are quick to disagree with everyone else's diagnosis but you didn't really respond to my questions and comments that were directed at you. Do you think 7.4 to 7.0 is too big of a night to day pH swing? Everything I have read says not but I am always opening to new opinions.
It was my understanding from your posting that pH fluct from 8.1 to 7.0 and it is big of a deal. Maybe I misunderstood?
My opinions are just mine as hobbyist who was in the industry (livetsocks/research of mine) for over couple of decades + studied related field. I do not mean to confuse the hell out of members but open other possibilities which can assist someone in trouble, hopefully
Whether one choose to listen or not, I leave it to each individuals.
It uses to be much easier when gave lessons locally to newbies long time ago where most did not go to extreme water conditions for their fish..This does not mean there are exact/best water conditions as there are none. They seemed to do lot better, imho, in what I called ideal conditions, close to their natural and constantly changing/evolving biotope for most fish, but def not all..


Your diagnosis is "not ideal water conditions", which has been proven to not be as critical as once thought and certainly not as harmful as rapidly changing conditions and poor maintenance, wouldn't the fact that my original tetras came from the exact same water and the new tetras & cories came from very similar conditions prove that there must be something else playing a role here?
Unfortunately, my answer to above is that its not always true for all fish as there are no two tanks that are exactly alike as far as water conditions are concerned.


How do you suggest I correct the water condition?
Prepare your q/t with an ideal condition for sick fish to see if it recovers on its own. You already had an answer how to prepare such.
Why would you think it is not the water condition at fault? Why is it some are able to keep fishes for long time, sometimes thru thick & thin than others. Yr or two is not what I would call long time at least on my standards.
Pretty much everything is related to water conditions which is/are directly related general fish health.

Just to clarify I do use QT for new arrivals AND sick fish. You say QT is best because it is easier to treat the fish, but what am I treating for and how?
Treatment is not an always an addition of med. Sometimes fish dispalys remarkable recoveries without any meds upon providing ideal conditions provided it isnt too late.
& What is the reason for use of meds when its main causes are not corrected.
I am not saying my suggestions are the only/correct reasoning for your losses but at least high perc of your situation if not most, IME..
It isnt always easy to diagnose diseases correctly as I may not have complete comprehension of your tank although somemtimes pic maybe clear cut.
That is why I dont always recomm meds but suggest possibilities for your comparison & determination.

If anyone can determine exact solution without scientific analysis, it is mere speculations and many false speculations can lead to worsening of situations.

With your fish in the pic, all I could see is pop-eyed/distended abdomen which can be a symptom of many different disease thus hard to say exactly what it is. These symtopms can be due to MB, fluctuation of pH/too much minerals in the water, other many many pathogens as well as combinations..

What kind fo antibiotic do you happen to have on hand, if any?
Did you even comtemplatd necropsy of prev dead fish for possible worm infestation (possible with naked eyes) which I doubt at this point but one can never be sure.

Opinions are great but I am looking for answers please, I don't want to destroy my tank (which would have to be ALL my tanks because I use a python for WCs on all my tanks except QT) so I am open to ALL solutions. I have researched this a lot and it leads me to too broad of possibilities and again that is why I come here.
I know how you feel as there were times when I had same feeling and thoughts but hobby is not exact science unless one has appropriate lab facilities in the garage.
Another perfect example why one should sterilize each apparatus when shared among many tanks. There are many ways to do so and cheapest way is to keep them under salt water b/n uses.

Pardon if I made you more confused as I thought I gave you my best suggestion I can based on limited info avail.
Athough difficult/painful time but hope you gain tons of knowledge along with resolution thru this mishap which I can not go into in detail in one posting. Even in school, it may take few yrs to learn some.

Perhaps I should just leave it others. Good Luck!

 

[platytudes]

Wow, that whole underlined text thing sure is an eyesore. Cerinathus, why don't you just use quotes like everyone else?

While everything above is true in a general sense, it's of limited usefulness to the OP...obviously, getting the fish in water chemistry that is closer to their ideal from the wild is not going to cure their septicemia like symptoms. These sort of symptoms can be brought on by very poor water quality, and remediated with the opposite, but this doesn't seem to be at all the cause here.

It's definitely true that improper water chemistry can make fish sick. Put a molly in soft water, it will be prone to fungus and the shimmies. When it comes to keeping fish from clear, pure water, naturally low in minerals and TDS...there is a correlation between exopthalmia (popeye) and dropsy like conditions when they are kept in water that is too hard, too high in dissolved solids...

...At least that is how the general wisdom goes. I tend to agree as I have seen it myself, not having the best luck with a few species since moving from pH 7.0, city water to 7.8 well water with alkalinity and hardness off the charts. German blue rams are probably the most obvious example.

HOWEVER, I think it's not just confusing but also a disservice to the OP, to make them rethink their whole fishkeeping M.O. and chalk up this whole event to keeping them in "less than ideal" water chemistry...I mean, isn't this what the pet stores say too? "Oh dear, your pH is terribly high, let me sell you some Amazon Buffer!"

Most places in the U.S. have hard water, so it's profitable indeed to make people feel like they are submitting their fish to a cruel death if they put them in water with a pH higher than 7.0 (might I add, glossing over the "messier" parts of water chemistry such as alkalinity, hardness and TDS...what really matters to the fish). And then suggest to them products (products that are not as expensive as an RO/DI unit, but not nearly as useful, and just as costly in the long run) that will supposedly "fix" the problem. Not just pH down drops, but also acidic substrate, blackwater extract, driftwood, peat granules, etc.

So anyhow, certainly it is not ideal to keep ember tetras in 8.1 pH, but is it what is causing the sudden, acute symptoms that the OP is seeing in a wide range of fish? Not just delicate ones from soft water?

Common sense dictates no. Moving on...

It could be a parasite, one of the most common parasites in the U.S. are Camallanus worms, especially among livebearers. Eventually though, you see the little red devils poking out of your fish...unless you spend very little time observing them. (Clearly not you, Jen!)

I would try crushing some fresh garlic cloves (do you have a garlic press?) and adding just a little bit of raw garlic to their food, Jack Wattley recommends it as an anti-helminth for discus. The idea is to not overdo it, otherwise your tank will reek...a very small amount goes a long way, I bet one press-crushed clove would last you a week if you fed it to one tank, once daily. Less if multiple tanks.

The UV sterilizer is definitely going to help, I think. Let us know how it goes!

I know that euthanizing all fish, sterilizing all tanks when there is a suspicion of MB is the conventional wisdom, but Diana Walstad didn't do this, and managed to make it work...with some very specific protocols (which make up much of the 11 page article, lol)