Some Fish Best Left Alone

[ghinksmon]

Apparently posting this thread here was "preaching to the choir". We're here because we want to learn more, share our experiences, and we truly care about the fish we keep. Even the newbies are here because they realize there is more to be learned. How do you get those thoughts out to everyone else?

Does anyone know if a retailer needs a permit/license to sell fish? I notice fish are the only livestock Walmart sells (at least near me); thus are small mammals, finches etc in a different category for retail? That may be the first step, to provide a minimal requirement of the retailer.

From there I think it is education, but there is a large number of people that have little regard for animals. Some of these people just won't be reached regardless. Dog fighting demonstrates this. It is illegal, people know it's wrong (even if personally they don't feel it), so it continues virtually everywhere.

I'm not sure there's an answer but I am glad, that at least here, no one rejected the idea entirely.

 

[Coler]

As for those who don't care or aren't willing to put in the effort to learn...try rock collecting.

I have yet to lose a single rock in almost 2 years of rock keeping. Of course, there is the wear & tear on purple string but that's a price I'm willing to pay.

 

[Reddog80p]

Disagree completely. The responsibility should be squarely on the consumers shoulder. Research what you purchase *before* you purchase it otherwise, deal with the consequences.

:iagree:

Everyone needs to be accountable for themselves. When are people going to stop blaming companies who are in the money making business for practices that are strictly based on profitability? Its really no different than anything else out there that is sold. As consumers we are quick to point fingers at the tv, music industry,tobacco companies etc. for things that are deemed inappropriate. Slap a label on it..tell people it's wrong..but at the end of the day it's the consumer who needs do the research and take a look in the mirror and decide either to support or not to support these types of things. We live in a free world...if you want rules and regulations on everything out there I doubt you would enjoy what our way of living would become.

 

[Spewn]

Everyone keeps saying things like "I'd support a licensing scheme." or "Let's introduce some sort of permit requirement for selling fish.", but have any of you stopped to consider the cost? This isn't something that you'll pay for at the pet store, but rather something everyone will somehow end up paying a little bit for. Everyone but us, here on these boards, will strongly oppose that.

 

[KarlTh]

But shops often set themselves up as sources of advice, not merely dumb retailers, and I think that is partly the point. The customer asking advice there does not think he's merely asking a retailer motivated purely by money; he may well imagine he's asking a knowledgeable professional for honest and informed advice. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for a person to ask advice at the shop and act upon that. If the shop lies to them, then to my mind they are at fault. Retailers *do*, IMO, have a moral obligation to act honestly. And in many ways, under UK law at least, they have a legal obligation to do so as well. A car salesman cannot tell you a car can accelerate from 0-60 in four seconds if it can't (Trades Descriptions Act), and a LFS cannot tell you a Pacu only grows to 6" (although I agree enforcement is virtually impossible here; Trading Standards tell me that selling non-aquatic plants for aquarium use is probably illegal, but...). If someone buys an irridescent shark because they were told by the shop it only grew to 6", then I cannot see that the shop has acted in an ethical manner and can evade part of the blame.

It does not, methinks, have to be either/or. Responsibility can be shared. Depending on the situation, the proportion of responsibility may vary. But it's simplistic to claim that making the retailer responsible absolves the buyer of responsibility. It doesn't.

For a comparison, if I buy a train set at Woolworths, I'd be a fool to listen to any advice offered (which it wouldn't be). If I buy it at the little model shop down the road which specialises in model railways, then I'd be a fool to ignore their advice.

 

[Spewn]

"But the shop lied to me!" This is a legal issue which already has an in-place solution. This situation has absolutely nothing to do with aquaria in general, and really doesn't belong in this dicussion.

The facts are very simple here; If you enter a retail establishment to purchase something of which you have no knowledge, you've made a mistake. If you rely *entirely* on ONE SOURCE for your knowledge(whether that's the shop you went to, or right here at aquariacentral.com) you've made a mistake. If you fail to ask *any* questions and assume(ASSume) you know the answers already, you've made a mistake.

I really don't know what all the whining is about. The retailer is not responsible for you. You are.

 

[Spewn]

For a comparison, if I buy a train set at Woolworths, I'd be a fool to listen to any advice offered (which it wouldn't be). If I buy it at the little model shop down the road which specialises in model railways, then I'd be a fool to ignore their advice.

Hey, I know that shop, remember Larry from Woolworths? Yeah, he owns it.

Doesn't seem like a great place for advice now, does it? Don't let the trappings fool you. Buying a store doesn't require any knowledge of the products you put in it.

 

[KarlTh]

Spewn - I think this is a philosophical divide on which we will not agree. I do not believe personally that a retailer can free himself of responsibility by simply being able to say it's someone else's fault - i.e. the customer.

The model shop down the road I was referring to, btw, is run by a guy whose been running it for 30 years and has won awards. So have many LFS - and yet they still sell unsuitable fish. If you sell an unsuitable fish, and know damned well it's unsuitable anyway, then IMO (and I know we won't agree on this), yep, you bear some of the responsibility. Yes, the customer made a mistake, as you pointed out. But so did the guy who sold it.

 

[chefjamesscott]

i for one would advocate certain controls or liscences to be needed for some fish to be owned or even an outright cessation of selling them

i had the misfortune or fortune of getting a few of these monster fish when i bought other peoples tanks the fish came with them i picked up "3 6" catfish with a tank only to find 3 iri cats varying from 10" -14", so i did what i could to home them fast and searched out a 180g as soon as i found one for sale and since i had a 180g i was asked to rehome a pacu from a 55g and a smaller one from a 33g so i took those as well

now im doing what i have to do and that is making plans to build 1 of 3-4 ideas i have come up with for a monster tank because i know these fish will live a long time and they will need much space to this end i have lined up and secured a deal on a 300g that i will have in place by the end of dec and i should have my monster tank thing done by the end of summer 09

this all being said i say that certain fish have no logical reason as to why they are for sale to joe public cause honestly its expensive to do killer tanks and not many people can drop thousands for big tanks or is crazy enough to make the commitment to do a monster tank

so personally i would put my name behind a ban on certain species but since i have gotten these little surprises with used tanks im gonna do the best i can

i have to add this i at times really really really really really etc........

HATE IRI SHARKS

i have had one leap from the tank cause it got freaked out during a wc

i have had one spear head ram into my hand from the one side my 180g to the other side where my hand was cause it got spoooked and it hit me right on the wrist my hand was numb for hours after i thought it had chipped a bone or somethign

i have had one slam so hard into the tank i thought it had killed itself cause it did not move for like 15 sec

this being said they are not fish that should be in the hobby but i will do my best with them since i got them now but i will not go out an buy another

 

[Spewn]

My point about the small model shop is that he should no more be afforded automatic trust, or be taken as the only existing source of information, than petsmart or walmart should. You acknowledge this yourself by giving the example of LFS's who have been around for a long time, won awards, have happy customers, but still sell "unsuitable" fish.

People assume that everyone is to be trusted unless notified otherwise. Why? Who knows. Regardless, people end up getting screwed because of that.

Now let's discuss these unsuitable fish. Is there a unified voice amongst the world at large defining which fish are suitable, and which are not? Is there even such a voice amongst the aquarium community at large? Suggesting that a shop is being irresponsible by stocking a fish not everyone agrees shouldn't be stocked is nonsensical. It's your *opinion* that they shouldn't sell a given fish, but ultimately the CARE of that fish lies with the consumer.

It's worth noting that I'm not suggesting a retailer has zero responsibility to anything. What I'm saying is that they aren't responsible for making sure you don't screw up. Walk into a pharmacy and try to buy some saltpetre as a 15-year old kid, I doubt you'll leave with it. Yeah yeah, it's a stump remover.

Rather, to me this is about customers with appropriate intentions who just don't bother, for ANY reason, to figure out what's up before they buy.