Sun Brite LED

[fsn77]

A couple things to point out, as I also have that exact same PAR meter:
1) The meter is being run in "Sun" mode, which according to the manual, reports a fluorescent light source 8% higher than actual and MH values 6% higher than actual. A high pressure sodium light is the only electrical light source the manual lists as being measured accurately in "Sun" mode. Nothing is stated about the accuracy of measuring LEDs in one mode versus another, but I would think "Sun" mode would result in inflated values similar to measuring fluorescent and MH in that mode.

2) The meter is also being run in "Sample" mode, which means you can go anywhere, hit the button on the unit, and it will record a sample PAR value of whatever light source is present. Notice the "10" above the PAR value -- that indicates the unit has stored 10 PAR values and is potentially displaying stored value number 10. While they may not be displaying a recorded value ("Sample" mode is also the mode used to get instaneous values), I would be willing to believe that it is truly an instantaneous reading if that "10" was instead "00" (which it says when no values are recorded / stored in the unit's memory). I realize that the "10" is there in all of the pix, but the fact that it says "10" and not "00" does make the pix seem less credible.

I just thought I would point those things out... I cannot speak to whether or not their results are truthful, but in my mind, I find myself questioning them.


Edit: Found a third thing...
3) Notice the camera flash in some of the pictures... How much PAR does a camera flash generate?

 

[Ace25]

Bottom line.. if you could get PAR readings into the 2000 range with only actinic lighting or 440nm LEDs then that would be the ONLY light you need as far as your corals are concerned. To us humans looking at a tank lit light that, we probably wouldn't like it. For the longest time people would say Actinics are used to balance out the white bulbs to look better.. now we are learning it is the opposite, the white light is used for us to balance out the blue light the corals need (remember, red light doesn't penetrate in water so most corals never have exposure to red light in nature). 440nm is the light spectrum corals (zooxanthellae) require to grow. Problem is.. it is very hard to do that with actinics only. White light does have the same spectrum in it, as well as others. Actually, right now using my spectrometer, my 14k Phoenix MH bulb puts out MORE 440nm than my 3 months old actinics (which are end of life on Actinics using an Icecap660 ballast). I have new bulbs and ballast coming tomorrow for actinics myself.. tired of overdriving them with an Icecap and only getting 3 months tops out of T5HO bulbs.

I will say this though.. there is a BALANCE of light to be found.. it doesn't mean the "Most PAR".. "Most wattage" .. "Most 20k look" etc.. it is a balance that each person needs to find with their tank and I am just now, with the right tools, starting to find that correct balance on my tank. For a long time I thought... more PAR=Better tank .. well, not true, more Par=More zooxanthellae growing which to a point is good, but after a certain point it grows to much and this is where "Browning of corals" comes in.. zooxanthellae is brown in color and when you super saturate your coral with them the coral starts looking brown.

 

[mcsassy]

^ Awesome explanation. So every tank needs a different amount of PAR? Do hard corals need more PAR than soft corals?

Seems like you guys are pointing to the fact that these lights are totally not legit...you think the reviews and stuff are all fake? I've been in contact with the owner through e-mail...they have a 2 year warranty...so if they just straight up didn't work, you could return them I'm guessing. That's a pretty good warranty to stand behind a product I would think. I mean I'm sure I'm not the only one that wants LED lighting to be the real deal because of all the potential benefits it has, but it seems like most people are just skeptical because of the low price point of this new product compared to the others that are out there right now.

 

[Ace25]

Funny... that is another misconception. A lot of people think hard corals=most PAR, again, isn't true. Actually many LPS corals have a much bigger tolerance for high and low light situations, where as SPS corals have a much narrower range of acceptable PAR ranges. Again, this doesn't mean SPS corals need more PAR than LPS corals, actually the opposite could be said on a few, like most montipora caps do better down lower in a tank that has a lot of PAR were as something like a frogspawn will do good down low or up high, flow becomes more of an issue with LPS corals up high in SPS dominated tanks. Just as an example, say a Frogspawn will do good in less than idea water conditions and have a PAR range from 200-1500 and do fine, where as an Acropora will only do good in PAR ranges from 500-1000 and needs much higher water quality. When you exceed 1000 for long periods of time the acropora quickly "browns out", and if you go under 500 for long periods of time it will bleach out due to not enough light to sustain photosynthesis for the zooxanthellae inside the coral. With SPS corals when you fall outside their narrow comfort zone things start to go bad very quickly and you must react quickly to find the problem and save the coral. I have found even waiting 1 day after you see the start of a problem will be almost certain death for an SPS coral where as with an LPS coral you have usually a week or more once you spot a problem to take action.

Let me try and break down corals as simply as possible.
Softies - Biggest tolerance to lighting conditions and water conditions, Low-Med flow
LPS - Good tolerance to lighting conditions and water conditions, Med Flow
SPS - Low tolerance to lighting conditions and must be pristine water conditions, Med-High flow.

I am not saying the lights are not legit, just the testing procedure used or at the very least the results of the non LED lights he tested. Although I have very high doubts on the actual readings posted for the LED. I don't doubt they are much better than your average radio shack LED bulb. I just hate when people post blatent misinformation just to sell a product. Let the product stand on its own whatever the test may be. If the LED only put out 200PAR that would still be an insane LED and I would jump on them myself. I just don't see getting much more than 150 PAR on the best LED with the best reflector at this time. There are always going to be better LEDs coming out so it really is only a matter of time before they are good, cheap, and easy enough for anyone to use.

Also, as far as I know, reflectors and spread w/ intensity are still the limiting factors on LEDs. You can get high intensity at a 10degree angle, but spread that out to a 45/60 degree angle and your PAR goes from 150 down to 20. This is why most LED fixtures have "pucks" of LEDs like on the solaris. You need to pretty much cover the entire tank with LEDs to get both the intensity and dispursion of the light coming from the LEDs. I am thinking for my LED strip making no less than 20 440nm LEDs, 2 rows of 10, to replace one 24" T5HO actinic bulb. Even then, with the best bulbs I can find, I am not sure if I am going to be able to replicate a 330 PAR reading from one T5HO actinic.

 

[mcsassy]

You can get high intensity at a 10degree angle, but spread that out to a 45/60 degree angle and your PAR goes from 150 down to 20. This is why most LED fixtures have "pucks" of LEDs like on the solaris. You need to pretty much cover the entire tank with LEDs to get both the intensity and dispursion of the light coming from the LEDs.

Well...it looks like those bulb strips have a whole bunch of mini LEDs inside them.

Other than all this, have you heard about that product that Orbitec, the company that sued PFO out of business is supposed to put out later this year? I think it's called the sunbow apollo or something like that.

 

[mcsassy]

How about this thing? Seems kind of funky...

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+10704+20393&pcatid=20393

 

[mcsassy]

So here, they have a website...couldn't find it before...maybe it's new?

http://www.sunbritelighting.com/

 

[Ace25]

LMAO!! That youtube video is priceless! I counted 9 plugs! That is 9 strips full of LEDs and they don't even come close to matching a 10K MH in PAR. Heck, it took him 6 strips of LEDs just to equal the PAR output of 1 24" T5HO ACTINIC bulb. That is really sad if you ask me.

Break down, 6 24" "Actinic" Sunbrite LED tubes = 1 24" T5HO actinic in output. That comes out to $110ea x 6 = $660 just to replace 1 T5HO actinic bulb.. I need to replace 4 of them, so if I were to go the Sunbrite route to match PAR it is going to cost me $2640 to replace 4 actinic bulbs with equal PAR output in LEDs. Not to mention I don't have that type of room in my canopy to stick 24 LED tubes just to replace 4 smaller T5HO tubes. Sorry, but it cost me less than $200 total for 2 2x24w T5HO ballast and 4 ATI Blue+ bulbs. It would literally take me 10 years of power use on the T5s before I even got close to breaking even in cost/power consumption.

So again, LEDs are really not there yet.. actually, not even close yet if those are supposed to be the "best of the best". The price on them is still insane. Actually, those Sunbrite LED strips come out costing quite a bit MORE than a Solaris fixture (I know.. out of business, can't get parts for them anymore). Just using them to make a point because most people thought the Solaris was way to pricey.. this things make a Solaris fixture seem affordable if you were to try and match the PAR of a Solaris I series to these strips.

Just wondering what part of that site or the video did you actually find appealing? Do you like having 9 power cords and 1000 LED lights just to match the output of 1 MH bulb? Let's just say you have a 24"x24"x24" 60G Cube aquarium. You can put on 1 250w MH and call it a day, or you can spend $3000+ on Sunbrite LEDs to equal that one 250w MH, which I can pick up any day of the week used on craigslist, local reef clubs, or regional reef clubs for $100-$150 complete with ballast, bulb, and reflector.

Again, not trying to downplay the importance of LEDs, I really do think one day they are going to be the lighting of choice.. but for the last 5 years now people keep jumping up and down with every tiny advancement in LED technology stating "Now we finally have the LED that will work for aquariums".. only to find out that still isn't true. I say at most, LEDs are 50% there, which if that was a grade would be an "F" still. I have seen several people spend $4500+ on the Solaris I series and every one of them was disappointed because they still couldn't grow Acroporas in the tank because the lighting still wasn't adequate. 1/10th of that cost, $450 for a MH setup for these people and they would have been happy with the results.. but spend $4500 on new fancy LEDs that the makers claim "Matches the output of a 400w MH!" only to find out they barely match the output of a 150w MH.

 

[mcsassy]

^ I don't know...it seems like the people with LED lights said they grow corals and then the MH group will keep talking poorly about them. Some sort of war going on. You seem to be the only one here that actually cares and seem to want to encourage the success and progress of LED, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm just so confused already with all the mixed reviews. I know for certain I don't want to stride down the metal halide path though. Let's see what the market brings us within the next year...some talks brewing about Orbitech partnering up with a well known aquatic company and is expected to be putting out a system later this year.

 

[fsn77]

When in doubt, stick with what's been proven to work through years of actual use by hobbyists. MH and even T5 HO have earned their place in the hobby. LEDs may be the future of aquarium lighting, but I don't see them being good enough or affordable enough to be as widely used as MH or T5 HO anytime soon. IMO, it's going to take more than just another year or two -- I'd say it's more on the order of 5 - 7 years.