Tank Crash Disaster - Trying to salvage what I can

[mel_20_20]

Anna! They all look so much better. Those guppys look sharp!! Great job!

I, too, am going to order some Terramycin to have on hand, Kiv. I think I'm going to order some Tricide-Neo also.

 

[Kivstev]

Anna! They all look so much better. Those guppys look sharp!! Great job!

I, too, am going to order some Terramycin to have on hand, Kiv. I think I'm going to order some Tricide-Neo also.

Would be interesting to experiment should you (or I) be unfortunate enough to have ever have multiple fish with Columnaris. Maybe treat one fish with Tricide, one fish in a hosp tank with Oxytetracycline, one Kanamycin, etc and post the results.

 

[Kivstev]

:OT: Sorry...

Mel: Ordered the OxyT yesterday @ Jehm and got it today standard UPS. $18.00 for 100 grams pure.

 

[halfmoonplakat]

Yay I love happy endings

 

[Cerianthus]

:clap::dance::mwave:

 

[mel_20_20]

Wonderful that the fishes look so much better. I'm so happy for you, Anna. I know you'll keep watchful, just to be sure they are 100% out of the woods.

Kiv, that's quick service on the Tricide, and a good price from what I've seen from other sources. I think your experiment idea is a good one, and I will definitely order and make sure I have all three meds on hand.... just in case.

 

[mel_20_20]

Oops... just noticed it was the OxyT. :duh: Well no wonder it was such a good price.

 

[BioHazard]

Still looking good today. Everyone ate well, and I did another large water change. I tested the water when I got home, and found trace amounts of both ammonia and nitrate. So I guess my bacterial filter isn't completely nuked, since I still am getting some nitrates.

 

[mel_20_20]

That's good to hear, Anna.

 

[DrNo]

Sorry for the delayed reply, Bio. Mel, nice post to follow-up. Additional thoughts in green:

Originally Posted by DrNo
I'm chiming in late, and don't expect to contribute much to an already excellent discussion on a number of topics.

I appreciate that care of specimens is as much an art as science, and what one aquarist swears by is the bane of the other. That said, here a few questions/thoughts based on my limited understanding of a complex situation... all to be taken with a grain of salt (pun intended):

1) What, exactly, is the complete stock of this 10 gallon tank? Do you believe it is overstocked?
Pre-crash, it was 5 peacock gudgeons, young, around 1 1/2 inches and around a dozen young guppy fry, none over 1 inch. Invert stock included a few mts, around 5 cherry shrimp and one brig.
I do not feel it was overstocked, but I could be wrong. I think it was the suddenly up in stock that crashed it. Also, I think I was overfeeding, as gudgeons can be tricky to feed.

Really pushing it based not on space, but bioload (particularly if you need to overfeed for a certain specimen). More on this below...

2) Please detail your weekly maintenance regimen and tank filtration (filter model) including frequency the mechanical filtration is cleaned.

2 sponge filters, one rated for a 15gal and one for a 20 gal. WCs weekly. Filters cleaned monthly.

Plenty of filtration. Especially with sponge filters, recommend you clean mechanical filtration in tank water every 2 weeks (especially if you're overfeeding for the gudgeons).

3) Do you regularly experience spikes in water chemistry (based on liquid test kit)? If so, when was the last time any notable changes in water chemistry occurred?

Guilty. I only test when first cycling a tank, I don't test weekly.

I don't believe there is an absolute need to test weekly unless you suspect problems, have new additions, are medicating, etc. As you know, small tanks leave very little room for error due to smaller water volume; things can go wrong quickly. Always proceed with extreme caution when adding even a single specimen to smaller setups or risk spikes. Any non-medicated setup that spikes chemistries under normal maintenance regimen is, by definition, over-stocked.

4) Were the new specimens quarantined? If so, for how long?

And guilty again. Throw the book at me. I had just had an issue with the neons, and my QT tank had not even been emptied yet. As I got the gudgeons while I was at work, I just explained how to add water to the bags to my parents.

No need to throw anything :thumbsup:You clearly strive to take exceptional care of your stock. I only throw the book at those (including posters here) who:

1) Treat their tanks as if they were a Western omelette... a "little bit of everything" with no advance research on specimen compatability, predation and care... just acclimate and add = grossly irresponsible.

2) Refuse to learn from their mistakes (we all make them) + perform advance research on needed care and appropriate equipment. There is little excuse in the internet age.

3) Ignore established best practices for care and then complain when they are called out on it.

These individuals deserve to have the "book thrown at them" as they are directly responsible for many of the adverse outcomes they experience.

The QT is a personal choice. It is obviously a very wise decision, but not absolutely needed as long as the aquarist is willing to risk loss disease/infection of existing stock each time a new specimen is added. I'm sure your parents did a good job acclimating the new specimens.

5) Do you trust the source of the gudgeons (i.e. reputable establishment/keeper)?

Yes, as far as I know. I have visited the store once, and was VERY impressed with the knowledgeable staff and impeccable looking tanks.

Sweet.

6) I believe you when you note that the specimen was covered in white, stringy patches but frankly, I don't see any evidence in the photos that this is/was necessarily columnaris. In fact, some of the photos I'm seeing hint at possible parasitic illness (and I don't mean ich). The popeye and "bloat" you described certainly suggest a general bacterial septicemia; the gudgeon just doesn't appear as expected in the photos.

Could be right. I kinda jumped the gun by saying columnaris. It was just white stringy stuff, like mold. Very white. All over the face and fins.

Hindsight is always 20/20...

7) Salt.... It is a strong personal preference (see the FW articles here at AC), but I don't use it for freshwater specimens unless I suspect parasitic infection. In that configuration, NaCl salt + heat is used as a medicinal (e.g. for ich). Otherwise, I don't use it.... ever. Period. I've seen too many bathes go horribly wrong before my eyes despite following protocols to the letter, too many specimens stressed, and precious little data to suggest salt addition to true freshwater systems does anything other than stress an already stressed specimen. The majority of the benefits attributed to salt use in freshwater systems is myth, just like the myth noted by Kivstev about airstones (which is absolutely correct).

I am not suggesting that the use of NaCl bath caused any harm in this situation, nor am I saying those who recommend salt bath/salt addition offer poor advice. I simply know that the "bath" is more for the benefit of the aquarist (executing active care) than of direct benefit to the fish. In short, salt addition and bathes are over-rated. Highly.

Did I mention that the use of salt in FW systems is over-rated?
Lol.
8) Antibiotics: when you start a regimen, you finish it. No different in humans to prevent resistance and other complications. The aquarist must also resist the temptation to mix regimens unless the meds are specifically designed for synergistic use (e.g. Maracyn I/II).
Yup.
9) Good-sized water change and gravel vac before addition of any meds.

Clean water/clean filter > any medication regimen.

Clean water/clean filter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salt
Okay.

The daily change regimen you've been performing is the best possible treatment and IMO, the most important reason you're seeing the improvement. Outstanding work. Keep up those water changes as you've clearly got a ways to go until the bacterial bed has recolonized.


Glad to hear you're seeing them recover; keep us updated.


Mel, I've read that article re: salinity adhesion for F. Columnare and its got some interesting data. Here's the problem: the stuff grew like wildfire in-vitro with higher salinities, but may have inhibited bacterial adhesion upon challenge to healthy specimens. In the experiment, the fish were acclimated to the salinities and then the bacteria was introduced to the water column (highlighting the adhhesion advantage). The experiment did not really address the effect of salt addition on specimens who were already septic. In fact, based on the higher in-vitro growth rate, it could theoretically fuel growth of the bacteria. All of this is speculation until someone actually runs that version of the experiment. It is certainly worth exploring and I think that research team is, in fact, conducting that study now. I'll be watching for it.

Happy New Year everyone!