What is this? Fungus? Bacterial? Excess slime?

[mel_20_20]

Hi Samantha. Thanks to Jinkzie for that link to Flaringshutter's excellent thread on Columnaris. I forgot what a great thread that is, though I've referenced it myself many times in threads such as this. I think her thread is extremely helpful, not only her account of her experience with Columnaris, but also the links she provides that describe the different strains and their usual manifestaion and progression and treatments.

Samantha, if you can, read all of the information in those links. I do see a difference in the photos of Diva, but I am still not convinced that this is not Columnaris.

I know this is upsetting to see, especially after your experience with your poor sick boy that you lost to Columnaris, but I am in dread for you that this will progress and get a real foothold in your Diva. I would go ahead and start treatment, it will be so much easier to beat this, and I truly believe you will with an early start.

As you read in Flaringshutters thread, and in the links she provides, you can see that treatment, early treatment especially, can absolutely whip this. I would do the salt, lower the temp, keep the water pristine.

She used Maracyn, which she states is a broader spectrum than the older version, but I'm not sure I'd use that alone. Maracyn 2 is absorbed through the skin and enters the fish's bloodstream, which is helpful in treatingr any internally established infection.

You could do as she did, have both meds available and only start on Maracyn 2 if it seems the infection is not being taken care of by the salt and Maracyn.

Maracyn 2 can be hard on the kidneys if there is any impairment of kidney function, so as early as this is I think, having rambled around on this a bit, that I would do exactly as Flaring did and start with Maracyn - if it is a newer more broad spectrum formula.

The insidious nature of Columnaris is fully described in Flaringshutter's link that details the four strains of FC. Your Diva most likely has the least virulent form, which is good news, otherwise she would be much sicker by now.

You might hold off on treatment, but I'm concerned that while you wait and watch, the bacteria could be spreading through her body internally, with no more significant visible signs, (as the information in those links state can be the case), until she is suddenly very visibly and seriously sick.

I still see the signs in that area, though it does look a little different. It may be that she's fighting it. Columnaris is a slime type bacteria and has motility across surfaces, but improved water conditions and better water circulation and oxygenation and other factors may be having an affect on the surface area, I don't know.

Samantha, I don't know for absolute 100% certainty that this is Columnaris, the predisposing factors are all there, the early symptoms are there; I think the best course is to go ahead and start treatment and stop this from progressing.

 

[msjinkzd]

I agree. I would at the very least slightly lower the temp (75-76ish) and add salt. I would support adding a combo of antibiotics as well. It DOES look lesser, but it would be horrendous if it moved to another part of your beautiful Diva and became untreatable.

 

[Saje]

Okay. Will treat her - I don't want a repeat of what I went through with my Roo - right about this time last year, ironically. I am STILL saying to myself that if I'd treated him earlier, when he was still acting okay, he'd probably still be here. No desire to be saying that about another fish.

Okay so now the question is what precisely. Earlier in the thread, Kanamycin was talking about along with Furan. Do we think Maracyn is better? Certainly easier to find. I did, btw, read through those links verrrry carefully (great links - thank you both!) and somewhere along the way it was mentioned that some strains of columnaris have become resistant to Maracyn (& Maracyn 2). So what best to do? If I'm going with antibiotic treatment, what's the overwhelming thought as to which?

And will it kill my bio filter? Shall I do what was suggested and keep a new sponge (I run a Hydro 2 in Diva's tank) in my snail tank (established tank - snails only - no disease) and switch it out once this is all over, or not necessary?

Then back to the salt dip question. Can it, or can it not be used as the sole treatment? Is it even advisable in this case? I know it will be WAY scary to do - making a fish keel over on purpose, God! - but as I understand it, if you do it right, they recover quickly once back in their own water, and, it's less stressful on them overall then however many days of antibiotics. (Or is it?)

Regardless, I will be adding a bit of salt to her water to help her deal with whatever treatment, as well as lowering her temps. I've brought it, since Friday night, from 80 down to about 76-77, will bring that a bit lower tonight. This is okay with bettas, who far prefer it 80-82? (Course, they far prefer not to have columnaris, too.)

Oh - and I bought the Jungle anti-bacterial food - any point in giving her that through all this, or shall I just return it? I did try one pellet with her and she eats it just fine (for now).

Any help on the above would be great - would like to get her started now while she's still healthy.

Thanks guys...

 

[mel_20_20]

I'm sorry to be slow getting back to this. Yesterday I was away most of the day.

I think that you've already started the Jungle Antibacterial medicated food, and that he is eating it, is excellent, keep that up and only feed that for now.

More to follow immediately (I'm typing and tend to write a novella so don't give up on me, lol).

 

[mel_20_20]

If you are up for the salt dips, then you could go with that method. This has been very successful as related in the case of the Discuss with Columnaris, described by Dougall Stewart, BSc. Hons, in the Cichlid article that Flaringshutter had in her thread.
If you decide to do that you could follow the directions in that link.

I have never used that method exclusively for the treatment of Columnaris, so I can't speak to the effectiveness of salt dips alone in my experience, but it was reported there to be quite effective.

I don't think, personally, I would rely on salt dips alone, and I would be very careful as you do this. If she seems to be excessively traumatized, that is to say if you see that there is any lingering traumatized behavior by the dipping process, then just hold off on any more of those and continue to keep her tank water at the degree of salinity she has been in.

Most who have done salt dips, myself included, do see an immediate recovery when returned to their fresh water (low salinity included), but I've never done salt dips on Bettas, and she is a new girl that had already had questionable treatment before you got her so I don't know how she can handle this emotionally.

Since Diva seems to be eating well and is fairly healthy otherwise, I'm less worried about her kidney function at this point.

I believe I would go with Furan 2 and Kanaplex. I wish I lived next door, I have both of those and would rush them to you, but I think you should be able to find those quickly, call around to all the LFS in your area and the big box stores.

I've found Furan 2 easily at Petsmart, and Kanaplex may be a little more of a search, but should be able to find it. If you find the Furan 2 and don't locate the Kanaplex right away down't wait, go ahead and get started on the Furan 2 while you continue to search for Kanaplex. It can be ordered online, but surely someone there will carry this.

I would do a huge water change before starting. just remember to make sure the replacement water is at the same salinity as the water she's in right now.

If you can find some Indian Almond leaf, that would be good to have in her tank as she goes through the treatment process.

Yes, I would put a sponge in an established filter to get some good beneficial bacteria established so you can easily re-establish your biofilter in Diva's tank once all treatment is finished. If you have some clean poly fiber, like you stuff pillows with (no soap exposure), I would put some in a media bag and hang it over the side in the snail tank as well. If you don't have a media bag, a new, never used, knee high stocking works.

Bring the temperature down to below 75 degrees. I know they like warmer water, but this won't interfere with her recovery and will help slow down the bacterial growth.

Add an airstone to her tank to keep the tank extremely well oxygenated.

Keeping her water pristine while dosing meds is tricky. I have have had great success with doing 90% water changes just prior to daily doses. If you have extra tanks/bowls it would be easy to do a 100% water change just before you dose the meds, changing tanks with each dose, however there's a lot of work involved in that: getting the temperatures right, salinity, and then moving her constently. (I have one of those plastic dip boxes that is much more gentle and less stressful than netting)

If you can't do that, then I would just keep her tank and do huge water changes there before each dose. Bare bottom tank is best, but I keep a silk plant in there to help comfort and provide a bit of a hiding place. I also have a small resin cave that I have and sterilze after I've finished treating a fish, finally. (I sterilize the silk plant and cave and store if for future use for my hospital tank.

Test her water with the liquid test kit for ammonia, nitrite shouldn't be a problem but test for that, too. Use Prime with each water change, in a bit of an overdose (it won't hurt) to help with any traces, even undetectable, of ammonia.

Use a turkey baster (new, fish tank dedicated) to remove any uneaten medicated food, after a couple of hours.

If she slows down on eating... crush some fresh garlic and put the medicated pellets in the juice for a few minutes. This may make the stuff more tasty.


(to be continued, immediately)

ADDENDUM: I'm not taking the time to proofread this so please forgive, spelling, typos, and sentence fragments if you find any.

 

[msjinkzd]

i can send you almost leaves if you don't have them

 

[Saje]

Oh thanks Mel - you are *always* such a great help. Just to address some of the stuff as you write your last bit.

Okay - I was able to fairly easily find Kanaplex. I could not - at LFSs or big chains - find Furan. I did, however, find something called Binox? Active ingredients are sodium chloride and nitrofurazone - is that roughly the same thing as Furan or do I use just the Kanaplex until I can find the "real" Furan?

I agree on the salt dips. She's EASILY stressed - even the water changes make her get stress lines, so perhaps salt dips is a badddd idea. So never mind on that one.

I have not ever seen IAL anywhere, ever. I could order some online - but wouldn't have it for the entire beginning of treatment. Still worth it or no?

Okay - will lower the temp further. She's at about 76 right now.

You said to do a big water change before starting the meds and to make sure the water was the same salinity. I haven't yet added the salt to her water. Should I add it before I do that water change so she's used to it a bit before I change the water and re-add salt to the new water and also meds? Not sure how best to do this with giving her a bit of salt since she has not had it before. ?

Since her tank runs a sponge filter, she already has an airstone (in the sponge filter).... Are you saying to add another or is turning that to high enough? (She's on low now.)

Bare bottom tank is best, but I keep a silk plant in there to help comfort and provide a bit of a hiding place. I also have a small resin cave that I have and sterilze after I've finished treating a fish, finally. (I sterilize the silk plant and cave and store if for future use for my hospital tank.

Uhm... I need to take everything out of her tank?? Or did you mean in that quote above only if I was using a hospital tank? I won't be using a hospital tank - was going to medicate right where she is. Knowing her personality, and how quickly and easily stressed she is, she'd be way better off at "home". Do you mean that I have to sterilize everything afterward? I mean, the meds are going to deal with anything on the gravel/silk plants/etc etc, right?

I do use Prime. Dose is supposed to be 2 drops per gallon. You think 3 drops per gallon is the kind of slight overdose you're talking about or more or less?

Gonna post this now and if you've written more will answer that too.

 

[Saje]

Aw Rachel - that's so nice of you! I do not have any - was about to go look for them online. Thank you, really. I'll PM you...

 

[mel_20_20]

Sorry... interruptions here.

You can find Indian Almond leaf extract or a tea, I think, if you can't find the actual leaves, but I do think that would be helpful, especially since you have fairly hard water.


EDIT: Great Jinkz... I posted this and didn't see your post with the offer of IAL.

 

[mel_20_20]

I think treating her in her tank will be fine.

No, I meant I have a small tank, resin cave and silk plant that I keep to use and sterilize after I have finished treating a sick fish. I have a sterilite box I keep it in and have it at the ready for when I need it.

I would do the big water change and then start with adding some dissolved salt. It's ok to add it along with the med, but make sure it's thoroughly dissolved.

(continued in next post)