40+ deaths in less then two weeks, please help

leoslizards

leoslizards

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Jan 20, 2007
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My guppies have been dropping like crazy in the past two weeks. I usually only lose about 1-3 a month from other diseases but in the past two weeks I have lost about 1-4 fish every day. Today I pulled out about five dead guppies and ten sick ones that I transfered to another tank. The majority of sick fish are gravid females that cannot swim correctly and wobble around the tank, some even swim vertically with their heads facing the gravel. Others just lay at the bottom, sometimes upside down and breath rapidly. Very few males show the same symptoms and the others look like they are starving to death. They have shrunken abdomens and lay at the bottom as well. Some look pale and some look fine. I don't see any changes in behavior in the loaches or the ABNP.

My ph is usually around 6.8 through 7.0 and was around 7.4 in Aug./Sept. and I have noticed it falling slowly. I treated the tank with a Jungle Labs product (forgot the name, a fizzing tab that turns the water green) twice around Nov./Dec. because my fish were showing signs of body fungus, clamped fins, dropsy, septicemia, and also suddenly jerked and darted around the tank and scrapped their bodies on plants and rocks. After I treated the tank, there was less signs of illness and about only four deaths since then, one being my male betta which showed heavy signs of dropsy and septicemia. I have not treated that tank with anything else since then.

Here are some of my water parameters.

Date: 12/19/07
PH: 6.8
NH3: 0.0
NO2: 0.1
GH: 140
KH: 20
Temp: N/A

Date: 01/08/08 (Before PWC)
PH: 6.4
NH3: 0.6
NO2: 0.1
GH: 160
KH: 30
Temp: N/A

Date: 01/08/08 (After PWC)
PH: 7.0
NH3: 0.0
NO2: 0.2
GH: 120
KH: 30
Temp: N/A

Date: 01/22/08
PH: 7.0
NH3: 0.6
NO2: 0.2
GH: 160
KH: 40
Temp: N/A

Date: 02/28/08 (Before PWC)
PH: 6.0
NH3: 0.6
NO2: 0.3
GH: 100
KH: 20
Temp: N/A

I have a 30g planted aquarium that's over two years old with a hob filter and a 150w heater. About 1" of Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate and 2" of leveling sand (wet sand) from Home Depot. The inhabitants consist of 100+ guppies, 8 (3-4") clown loaches, a 4" ABNP, about 10 ghost shrimp and about 100+ mystery snails. Yes I know I'm overstocked.

They only changes that I can think of that might be causing this is that I added two mystery snails about two months ago which reproduced so now I have about 100 pea sized mystery snails. Maybe their shells are absorbing the calcium and nutrients from the water which might be lowering the ph and causing a mini-cycle. My test kit only goes to 6.0 but I have a feeling it might be even lower because the tint of the liquid looked lighter then the color on the color chart. I also noticed an increase in Co2. I don't inject or use DIY co2 by the way, or any type of co2 additive or ferts. I looked at a chart online to determine the amount of co2 gases in the system and according to the chart with a ph of 6.0 there seems to be a slightly high level of co2 which is usual for my system which is usually low. I recently added a drop checker and it's green which means it's ok though. When I noticed the gravid females rapidly breathing at the bottom, my first thought was that the co2 levels were too high so I added a large airstone which I now have running 24/7. The drop checker is currently blue. Btw, my plants have never looked better. Another change to the system was that I added a new light fixture. It went from 60 watts to a total of 100 watts. I set it on top of a piece of plexi-glass that covers 2/3 of the top which is also new. It might be that the new lights are raising the temp of the water. Someone told me that guppies like cooler temps in the lower 80's. Another thing that may cause a problem is that about a month ago while I was cleaning the gravel and moving some plants, I noticed that the gravel kept releasing some bubbles. I believe these are called anaerobic bacterial bubbles? I heard this could cause illness when released into the water column. I was talking to someone about this and they told me to look for posts on how to keep from getting these pockets and how to maintain a sandy dense substrate. I also read long ago that MTS stir up the dirt/sand which help reduce these pockets of gases.

I did a pwc on 02/28/08 to help reduce the low levels of ammonia and nitrites but have yet to re-test the water since then. I'll get those results posted here later on today as well as some temp readings.

I would greatly appreciate any help or advice on how to fix this problem. Btw, I have an empty uncycled 10g tank with a hob filter but no heater. I might be able to get another one with hob also. I also have a bunch of different meds and a Seachem product that raises the ph to 7.0. I don't know the exact name but I will post that later. I hope this all is enough info about my system to help determine the issue.


Thanks.
Leo
 
I do not think the snails are the cause. They may, however, be stirring up the substrate releasing the problem - accumulated detritus.It is possible that one or two dead fish were not located and their decomposition triggered the events you have been seeing. The water parameters seem to be bouncing all over which will, itself, cause a great deal of additional stress on the fish beyond that they are already dealing with.

I would suggest you consider removing all tank decor except substrate to a spare tank. Stir the substrate and then do your partial water changes until all the detritus is removed.Use tap water with dechlorinator only if it is of a consistent chemistry. I remember when my local water on Long Island bounced all over.

Once the tank is cleared you should treat for parasited. These could have arrived on/in the snails and taken hold first in the substrate then the fish. You may lose all your snails doing this. That will necessitate repeating the cleaning process. A simpler way is to remove all the snails you can to the spare tank holding your decorations, then treat both tanks. If the snails die in the spare tank, you can readily deal with that. If one or two escaped your search and die in the main tank, their effect will be far less than all of them.

Charlie
 
Hi Leo

leoslizards said:
The inhabitants consist of 100+ guppies, 8 (3-4") clown loaches, a 4" ABNP, about 10 ghost shrimp and about 100+ mystery snails. Yes I know I'm overstocked.
To be honest I was hoping you were joking in saying this but it appears not. I am the last person seeking treatment advice to offer a stocking critique unless absolutely necessary. It is necessary in your case.

That is absolutely the most awfully overstocked tank I have read about on here in quite a time, especially considering that you clearly do care about the fish, kudos to you. In fact its not overstocked...my own tank is overstocked...we need a new word for your tank




They only changes that I can think of that might be causing this is that I added two mystery snails about two months ago which reproduced so now I have about 100 pea sized mystery snails.

Nope. that's a contributory factor but not causative. Look at your water readings. I don't know what test kit you're using, but you're showing ammonia, nitrite all over the place. That together with your overstocking, which causes stress and makes transmission of disease so much more likely, is what your current 'underlying' problem is. It's not solvable in that tank

I would greatly appreciate any help or advice on how to fix this problem.

To address your acute difficulty, New tank, 100 gallons minimum if you want the loaches followed by careful attention but lets be practical; as big as you can possible go, or rehouse your fish. a 55 won't cut it for the loaches, but if you want to keep 100 guppies that would be where I would put them...although I wouldn't keep 100 guppies but that's just me

Btw, I have an empty uncycled 10g tank with a hob filter but no heater. I might be able to get another one with hob also.

Re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, after the iceberg.

Finally, out of interest, what is your tank water changing regime and nitrate reading at ? For the sake of your fish you should be doing oh say a 100% water change a day in there, but I won't say to do that until your Nitrates read 40 ppm off a reliable liquid drop test kit. If above this do 15% daily until below, then water change as necessary to maintain below 20 ppm. Reason for this is that at Nitrates above a safe level changing to clean water instantly can shock the fish and kill them

Basically Leo, you will not be able to keep those fish healthy in that tank. We could talk in and out and around this main problem, about overstocking, about parasites, bacteria, fungus, old tank syndrome, ich and the rest of it and we would be wasting your time, effort, probably your money. If you keep those fish, healthy, it will be in a bigger tank.

Thanks.
Leo

No prob buddy, sorry for the shooting from the hip but I wouldn't be doing you any favours otherwise
Click to expand...
 
I WANNA SEE PIC!!!

to your question: as far as I know, those pond snail are VERY messy creatures, and they produce A LOT of waste (ammonia), even with only a few of them.
I had about 4-5 of them in a 2g plastic container (no substrate) once, 2 days later, the whole tank floor was filled with their poos...it was disgusting. It is hard to see their poos when you have substrates, but with a bare tank...you see everything.

Also...it seems like you are having a PH crash too. Did you use any PH adjustment chemical before?


and please show us pics of your tank :grinyes:
 
That is wildly overstocked, which is the entire cause of all of your problems.
Get rid of the clown loaches, they get BIG and have no business in a 30g tank at all.

Then get rid of about 50 guppies, or more.




If for whatever reason you can't do the above (get rid of the clown loaches, they get to be SIXTEEN INCHES long), you need to be doing large water changes daily, and you need more filter capacity.

Think 50%/day changes and a second filter rated for a 100g aquarium, cause thats the bioload you have. (Actually your stock would probably be overstocked in a 100g, really)
 
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I'd return all of the loaches for starters... then keep up w/ ~50% PWC every time you see any NH3 or NO2 result >0.
 
NH3 = ammonia, btw.
no2 = nitrite.


I'd like to see a nitrates reading, i'm guessing 200+
 
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