The main question in my mind now is which side Ice is on... so I've gone back to pull his quotes.
Here in spirit but not yet mind..
I apologize for being so quiet. I'm just not into it right now. Lately its taken a couple of days for me to actually want to play.
I know Wiz and Kashta live on the west coast... It wouldn't happen to be Santa Carla would it?
Then again Chill is Canadian, they are pasty white and not used to seeing the sun.
First two posts, Ice acknowledges his lack of activity and jokes (I guess) about Wizard, Me, and Chill on a vampire theme.
We watched that last night too. I have to say it wasn't as good as I thought it would be. Glad I got ot thru netflix and not the theater.
Since I don't believe a role as important as lead vamp would be left to chance no matter what Lab says I'm going to vote for Rich or JB, the 2 players that play under the radar no matter their role. I just haven't decided which one yet.
What starts as another chatty post becomes something much more, as Ice stated he's going to vote either Rich or JB -- for reasons which contradict what the game mod had already said in the rules (roles were random). Ice gives no other reason for any of us to vote them... identified nothing they have done or said as being scummy.
If Ice was evil at this point, he would know both Rich and JB are innocent and wouldn't have suggested this unless he was hoping others might follow.
If Ice was innocent from the start, then making this post to name 2 "possible" evils who very well might be innocent for all he knew was very careless on his part.
He does seem to get forgetful when evil. Its his way of not screwing up the situation more, not that it works ever.
I vote to stake FF
Ice was the first to place a vote. This vote lead to an early train on FF.
Good question, strikes me a bit strange that a noob would think any certain number just because they wouldn't have any concept of the odds usually used,especially in a team building type game.
While discussing how many vamps there might be, TwoHobbies guessed there would be 3, possibly 4. Chill questioned that post asking him to explain it.
Here Ice responds to Chill's question and raises doubts about TwoHobbies being able to make a guess like that just because he's a noob who isn't supposed to know anything about mafia games.
However, TwoHobbies had already established that he's read 3 of our last mafia games. In those games, there was similar discussion in those game threads and more discussion about standard ratios between evil vs. innocents in the scumden/innocent boards, as well. And links to those boards were provided from those game threads.
Seems to me if TwoHobbies was telling the truth about having read past games, this sort of information would be exactly the type of info a newcomer would pay attention to. I find it quite believable that a new player who actually takes the time to research past games before joining us in this one would certainly be able to deduce our evil-to-innocent ratio is normally 25% or so.
I'd love to vote JL but he isn't playing.
When I say the LV, Dracula, not being random I just mean I doubt if the number generator chose user or twohobbies that Lab would keep it the same.
Doesn't mean neither could be vampires,just not the lead.
I also brought up JB and Rich because if it was handpicked those are 2 I would choose as a Mod or one of my 1st picks as LV.
FF why would you try to act like the hunter or priest? Only way I can see this being a good strategy is if you're a vamp so if we think you are one of the PRs we wouldn't lynch you.
Starting to wonder if FF isn't trying to distance from hobbies.
Ice explains his theory again naming JB and Rich as suspects because he'd choose them if he were mod or recruit them if he was Dracula. Ice then questions FF about his strategy and suggests FF and TwoHobbies may be linked together as evil teammates.
That is a terrible strategy. An evil would never call you on it, they will just bite you and have you killed off. Why would they need to bring attention to themselves by voting you?
I didn't vote you because I thought you were either, I myself didn't realize you were alluding to the fact. But if I did as pointed out in my other post the only reason to allude to it would to cover your evilness by hoping innocents wouldn't lynch you.
Reply to FF to point out how that strategy doesn't work.
I didn't make a list of who I thought Lab would handpick. I named 2 players that play well and under the radar. I didn't name any other players so for you to say I made a list and left me off isn't true.
For now my vote stands on FF, I need to reread the entire thread. I want to see who thinks he is innocent and why and also who is trying to deflect attention away from him.
Dag has also got my attention. I actually think this is the 2nd time he has claimed this same case against me, guess it didn't catch steam the 1st time and he thinks reiterating it will help.
Explains his theory again, taking exception to Dag for questioning Ice's motives. The paragraph in red is interesting in itself... Ice can be intimidating to others in the game or merely influential.
Was Ice so convinced that FF must be guilty that he'll go after anyone who even attempts to defend him? I can see how such a statement might discourage other townies from expressing their concerns if they aren't as sure about FF as Ice seems to be.
This was the other post I had skimmed through that caught my eye. Its not what I thought it was, but here I'm guessing he thinks I wouldn't bring it up if evil but then later he uses that reason for me bringing it up. I let him clarify the 2 posts before I make an hasty decisions.
Ice pulled up another post by Dag for questioning Ice's theory and wondering if his motives are suspicious.
Wiz, I think I actually was the 1st to question the Mods intentions when I said I don't believe in total random.
Here is the post I made explaining it.
All theories are worth posting.
Ice is still focused on his own erroneous theory. Ice notes here that Wizard responded by questioning the mod's intentions.
Ice still has made no mention of the fact that my response to Ice's theory was to question Ice himself... not the mod.
I thought that too but there is actually a Mac app called sticky. I googled it.
Comment about FF referring to his sticky notes.
THIS is why I thought Dag had brought up the same case twice. Kash brought up the exact same case 1st.
Now neither think the 2 lead vote getters are vote worthy. To coincidental for me.
I retract my vote to stake FF and vote to stake Kash
Nowhere in his posts anywhere else has Ice done anything helpful for the town. Thus far in the game, Ice has pointed out JB and Rich as suspicious based on nothing else but a bogus theory proven wrong by the game mod... added suspicion against both FF and TwoHobbies (who ended up leading the votes)... and gone after Dag for questioning Ice's theory.
In this post, Ice voted me because I was the first to dismiss Ice's theory and I disagreed with his case against FF and TwoHobbies.
It was either you or Dag, you're the bigger threat IMO.
Its that you and Dag both posted a lie. I only posted who I would have handpicked and why. I didn't make a list so I didn't leave myself off of one. I never said Lab would have chosen those 2.
I'm surprised that you even felt the need to respond to my vote, it is only 1 vote on you after all.
Explains his vote on me over Dag. Accuses both me and Dag of lying when he's the one posting a false statement. (See below.)
Is that your reason for voting Kash, to make it a 3 way tie? Even though its not?
What about Kash has her leaning evil to you?
Goes on to question Noodles for following his vote on me.
That is some nice twisting there Ice, I never posted a lie. If you don't consider putting two names down for who you thought LR might of tweaked with a list then I don't know what to tell you.
Anyways, I vote to stake DD!
Every time that I have played with DD when he was evil he was silent and absent. If it looks like DD is going to UD i may just switch vote over to 2hob.
Here, Dag refutes Ice's accusation.
Again Dag I didn't post that I thought Lab handpicked them I posted I would have picked them. Its the best I had at the time and who I would have voted for if I saw anything in the way of defensiveness by them or for them. FF just caught my eye before they did. Then you and Kash caught my eye by using the same reasoning.
It looks like better reasoning to vote me then the reasons you have for DD or for Kash to be voting Chill, but guess thats just my opinion.
Here, Ice restates (incorrectly) what he had posted earlier about identifying Rich and JB as suspects he intended to vote. (See below.)
DD has 2 votes and I am considering moving my vote to her.
I don't like the express train on Kash after I voted her.
I usually frown on voting a UD but in a team building game we can lessen the number of lost innocents by taking out 1 that looks like she is going anyway.
I retract my vote for Kash and vote to stake DD
sorry Lab
Ice's retraction voting DD instead of me. I thought this post was very weird when I read it later, first because he dropped his vote on me simply because others followed him. Ice didn't have the same concern about that when the town followed his vote starting a train on FF.
At the time Ice posted, I was posting something else so I didn't see it right away. When I did, I didn't get why he would vote DD at that time because she was probably going to UD anyway. Ice didn't bother to explain why voting a UD wasn't a waste.
This next post is the one I referred to earlier when I said "see below."
Jpappy was confirmed innocent on Day 1 as he was turned by the vampires at nightfall (then staked by the slayer).
Pappy quoted this line from Ice's previous post:
"Again Dag
I didn't post that I thought Lab handpicked them I posted I would have picked them."
Pappy also pulled Ice's earlier quote to highlight what Ice actually said:
"
Since I don't believe a role as important as lead vamp would be left to chance no matter what Lab says I'm going to vote for Rich or JB, the 2 players that play under the radar no matter their role. I just haven't decided which one yet."
Ice, that is not exactly what you said...
You said you would vote Rich or Jb because you would think they are the best people to be LV. In context, LAB HANDPICKED THEM! You pretty much said it yourself that it didn't matter what Lab says because it is an important role.
You cannot say that it's such an important role and exclude a bunch of people and then state that you were not implying that the role was hand picked. You could still say that you would handpick them but to then turn that into a potential vote you have to also think that Lab would have done it as well...
And then voting DD because she might UD? Weak.
I retract my vote on DD and vote to stake Ice
We know for a fact that Pappy's alliance at that time was pro-town and he's the one who called Ice out for misrepresenting his previous statements.... then Pappy went on to vote Ice for lying to us.
Not true. I do not play under the radar as I stated they are able to do. If I wanted to name a list of players that would be a good choice for LV I would have included you,Wiz and Jpap.
At this time I still see DD hasn't shown. My vote is going to stay on her. I don't see how it hurts to vote a UD in this type game especially on Day 1. Instead of losing 3 innocents to lynch and bite and UD we only lose two.
We still learn something. We still have Day 1 to look back at for future reference. We just lose 1 less person. Also if we lynch an innocent we're more likely to lynch another since the team is still small.We'll be going after each other and they'll just have to stoke the fire.
In red: Ice tries to split hairs again defending his previous statements. It is true that either me, Wiz, or Pappy would be good choices... it's also true that Ice would as well.... obviously. I'd venture to say either Rich or JB would also serve well in that roll.
In blue: This is what Ice told us about voting DD that I felt was true, despite the fact that I was unsure whether Ice was pro-town or evil.
In purple: Another true statement (IMO) about voting the UD.
After I rechecked the rules myself and the sequence of nightfall events to decide whether or not Ice was trying to trick us, I decided to vote DD myself. I also expected someone else would do the same.
Obviously my thought was on a bigger threat as evil since I voted you because I thought you were vamp. Still not sure either way but I'd rather lose someone it looks like we are going to lose anyway then risk losing an innocent that could help. I'm sure you will be investigated soon enough and we'll know at that time.
Ice's response to me when I asked him whether he considered me a greater threat to him... to the town (if evil)... or to the vampires (if innocent).
Yeah well thats on you guys. If you're sure you're vote is on a vamp then keep it there. I'm not sure and since DD is going to die anyway I'd rather see votes fall onto her and save a possible innocent.
I believe it was after this post from Ice that I switched mine to DD. That was the most convincing point in my mind because my vote on Chill wasn't a solid vote I felt was worthwhile. However, a vote on DD at that time, in this format, and for the reasons stated made much better sense to me for the town's benefit.
I'm saying if you have a good case or feeling on a vamp then by all means vote them. If you are under 50% sure then you should vote the UD.
I agreed with the logic behind this.
Team building games play differently. I'd really rather have had the 4 way tie to give the vamp team less choices to choose from.
FF the nightly staking doesn't have to happen every night and really would be a bad move to make on night 1.
Ice further explains why voting a Day 1 UD when there are just a few vamps still in a team building game format would be good for the town. This differs from voting a UD later on after more vampires get turned and the team building effort has gained more numbers on their side.
I thought you meant the slayer staking FF.
Clarifies another point.
Wow nice lucky shot there slayer. Good thing he was turned or we'd really have been screwed tonight.
So 1 more to the vamp team. Anyone want to claim it?
Need to hit the bed, early morning.
This was Ice's first "reaction" post following nightfall events. Notice how he terms the shot taken as "nice" and "lucky"... this reads to me now that Ice was more
surprised than he was
pleased about it. But that's obviously open to interpretation.
Ice also expresses a warning perhaps? If nothing else this is a reminder to the slayer that taking a risky shot could backfire if they hit an innocent by mistake. While that may be good advice to consider, obviously, it also serves to discourage the slayer from playing a hunch or risking a shot that isn't 100% certain..... and that could cause the slayer to second-guess themself at a time later when they
should take a chance. The WIFOM aspect of this statement at the time Ice posted it concerns me.
Or we could also say you lost us 3 players. If you had voted DD then innocent user wouldn't have died and we'd only have lost 2 innocents. Jpap doesn't count as a loss since he was turned.
I don't know. Every time I voted someone a quick train formed on them. I wasn't happy with any of them after that.
Ice defends his idea about staking DD before she could UD instead.
I could see this being true if DD showed evil but she showed innocent. How does that make me look good?
All I was doing was trying to buy us an extra day by cutting losses. I'm not asking anyone to trust or follow me.
It looks to me that so far LG and JM are the only ones really upset that DD was voted for, why? You got your 4 innocent kills and while Jpap can't vote he can still strategize with you.
Further discussion about the DD votes.
-------------------
I've just pulled every single post Ice has made. What I find more troublesome is Ice offers us no help at all about anything else we've been talking about in the thread. All Ice has done is... point suspicion toward JB and Rich, support the runaway train votes against both FF and TwoHobbies, and come after both me and Dag for standing up to him and suggesting he might be suspicious for putting out a theory that had been verified as false by the game mod.
There's obviously been no case brought against JB or Rich for anything suspicious. I felt the cases behind votes on FF and TwoHobbies were weak and opportunistic (as I've posted before). I'm also concerned that Ice went so hard after me and Dag just because we were willing to question him or oppose his apparent agenda in this game.
For those reasons, most important of which is Ice's general lack of participation on other topics in the game (other than pushing his own baseless theory on us)...
I vote to stake Ice.
I have more comments to add now about tonight's vote, but I'll do that in a following post.
