PH raised out of no where!

[FreshyFresh]

I don't know that I'd call the pH difference between 7.8 and 8 no big deal. Isn't that about a 2x difference in pH?

 

[Tifftastic]

What you are missing there is the relationship to to the precision and accuracy of the testing method.

I definitely agree that there is a margin of error around observer bias. However, I feel that makes the differences between the pH given all the more important rather than less important. Obviously, you're aware of the importance of pH on biological functions and very knowledgeable and I'm not disagreeing with the basis of your point. However, I am disagreeing with the conclusion and stand by my belief that due to observer error, a change of .2 or .4 is a big change.

Hello Tifftastic!! Awesome awesome reply. This is great! I believe it's the floramax because the 65g has flourite underneath the same gravel and I had no issues. Anyway love this in depth knowledge!
Thank you for not making me feel stupid

Chemistry is hard. I don't think you need to be a chemist to be a fish keeper, but I think having a base understanding of what the different things that you're testing for actually tell you. I'd suggest reading as much as you can about it, I'll give that I haven't read enough about pH and this is the basics. Being uneducated about a topic doesn't make you stupid, as long as you are open to learn! Stupidity comes from not being willing to learn, IMO.

 

[Bunsen Honeydew]

Tests are less consistent at the edge of their ranges, so putting too much importance on them could cause unnecessary chemistry changes to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I'd try doing a water change and observing both the initial pH and changes over time.

While the pH scale is logarithmic, the actually changes in a biological system come from how the pH influences molecular equilibria, which usually occurs in a similar log fashion. This has the effect tempering the linear effect. In other words, doubling hydronium concentration is not the same as doubling a concentration of another compound, like ammonia or nitrite.

 

[Bunsen Honeydew]

Thank you but I'm not really missing anything. I understand all that. I just wanted to see what your thoughts are because you said there is not much difference between 8 and 7.8
I humbly disagree with that after research and hearing others. Anyway I appreciate the info none the less. I just felt it was a little rude telling me I missing something. You don't know my intelligence all in fun though just putting that out there.

I wasn't replying to your post, I was referring to the analysis of the poster quoted, and I didn't I tend for it to be rude. I think that given the lack of precision at the ranges specified, the difference may be less (or more even) than one would assume because of the sampling method. A 0.2 pH difference can be very different in terms of water chemistry, but for the reasons that I mentioned above, it is likely a difference without a distinction. I think that it is better to not overreact in situations like this and not chase a chemistry. I know that not everyone has a PhD in chemistry, and thought that my viewpoint could be helpful. Also, just because I am disagreeing that it doesn't mean that I am arguing. I will always welcome questions on my viewpoints, and am more than willing to change them with evidence.

 

[sumtnfishy]

I wasn't replying to your post, I was referring to the analysis of the poster quoted, and I didn't I tend for it to be rude. I think that given the lack of precision at the ranges specified, the difference may be less (or more even) than one would assume because of the sampling method. A 0.2 pH difference can be very different in terms of water chemistry, but for the reasons that I mentioned above, it is likely a difference without a distinction. I think that it is better to not overreact in situations like this and not chase a chemistry. I know that not everyone has a PhD in chemistry, and thought that my viewpoint could be helpful. Also, just because I am disagreeing that it doesn't mean that I am arguing. I will always welcome questions on my viewpoints, and am more than willing to change them with evidence.

No no all that is perfectly fine. I didn't think you were arguing whatsoever. I appreciate EVERYONE's wisdom and knowledge. Thanks for your time!!

 

[sumtnfishy]

Tests are less consistent at the edge of their ranges, so putting too much importance on them could cause unnecessary chemistry changes to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I'd try doing a water change and observing both the initial pH and changes over time.

While the pH scale is logarithmic, the actually changes in a biological system come from how the pH influences molecular equilibria, which usually occurs in a similar log fashion. This has the effect tempering the linear effect. In other words, doubling hydronium concentration is not the same as doubling a concentration of another compound, like ammonia or nitrite.

Ahh that makes total sense and thank you for the advice. I was debating how I wanted to experiment and observe. Normally I would not worry about 7.8 - 8 but (with out getting too much into this discussion topic) this tank is for breeding fire red apistos and the last thing I wanted was for the pH to go up even higher than our tap pH 7.8. I wanted to at least be at 7.6 Since I can add the pair whenever, I am going to take my time and use this opportunity to play. My plan 3 different buckets...My first test will be to leave water samples out for 24 hrs. then re test pH. I will then add the Seachem Flourish and do a 2nd reading Second test is to add both Flourish an Floramax and 3rd test Floramax alone. I would like to isolate this a bit. Just interested in seeing what I might find.

 

[sumtnfishy]

I definitely agree that there is a margin of error around observer bias. However, I feel that makes the differences between the pH given all the more important rather than less important. Obviously, you're aware of the importance of pH on biological functions and very knowledgeable and I'm not disagreeing with the basis of your point. However, I am disagreeing with the conclusion and stand by my belief that due to observer error, a change of .2 or .4 is a big change.



Chemistry is hard. I don't think you need to be a chemist to be a fish keeper, but I think having a base understanding of what the different things that you're testing for actually tell you. I'd suggest reading as much as you can about it, I'll give that I haven't read enough about pH and this is the basics. Being uneducated about a topic doesn't make you stupid, as long as you are open to learn! Stupidity comes from not being willing to learn, IMO.

Yah I took chemistry in college but that was a while ago Yep that is why I am always asking questions because ignorant people don't choose to educate themselves

 

[Bunsen Honeydew]

Ahh that makes total sense and thank you for the advice. I was debating how I wanted to experiment and observe. Normally I would not worry about 7.8 - 8 but (with out getting too much into this discussion topic) this tank is for breeding fire red apistos and the last thing I wanted was for the pH to go up even higher than our tap pH 7.8. I wanted to at least be at 7.6 Since I can add the pair whenever, I am going to take my time and use this opportunity to play. My plan 3 different buckets...My first test will be to leave water samples out for 24 hrs. then re test pH. I will then add the Seachem Flourish and do a 2nd reading Second test is to add both Flourish an Floramax and 3rd test Floramax alone. I would like to isolate this a bit. Just interested in seeing what I might find.

Could I trouble let you to try testing pH with both kits? I'd be curious to see those results.

 

[sumtnfishy]

I don't know that I'd call the pH difference between 7.8 and 8 no big deal. Isn't that about a 2x difference in pH?[/QUOTE

Hi FreshyFresh! See I was taught by many that is a bigger deal than some believe.

Could I trouble let you to try testing pH with both kits? I'd be curious to see those results.

Hello! Sure I can test whatever you would like but please clarify what you mean by 2 kits? let me know thanks. I have my floramax in a 2 gallon bucket with water will sit overnight. I also have a 2 gallon bucket of water with Excel fourish in it it. Will leave overnight at well.
I have fluval peat moss pellets in the filter. Has been in there for 2 days and the water is still reading a strong 8. This is crazy because I have made "soft" water before in a 5 gallon bucket with those pellets and it is strong and will drop fast. So yah something is definitely not letting the peat moss work do it's job.
I absolutely love experimenting and I enjoy posting and sharing in these forums!! Thanks for joining me everyone

 

[Bunsen Honeydew]

Hello! Sure I can test whatever you would like but please clarify what you mean by 2 kits? let me know thanks. I have my floramax in a 2 gallon bucket with water will sit overnight. I also have a 2 gallon bucket of water with Excel fourish in it it. Will leave overnight at well.
I have fluval peat moss pellets in the filter. Has been in there for 2 days and the water is still reading a strong 8. This is crazy because I have made "soft" water before in a 5 gallon bucket with those pellets and it is strong and will drop fast. So yah something is definitely not letting the peat moss work do it's job.
I absolutely love experimenting and I enjoy posting and sharing in these forums!! Thanks for joining me everyone

The high and low pH tests.